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Which territories will not survive next month? And next year?

1155 sats \ 84 comments \ @supratic 23 May oracle freebie

Has been interesting to see so many territories popping up in the past few months, some brave ones are still trying, but honestly, I cannot see how a territory could be sustainable, imagine it being profitable... atm is utopia!

Just for fun, which territories you think will be the ones being kicked out (not renewed) next month? And what about the ones out next year?

Here the list of current active territories in alphabetical order:

~AGORA ~AI ~alter_native ~AMA ~antifragile ~art ~B2B ~bitcoin_beginners ~bitdevs ~BooksAndArticles ~builders ~charts ~conspiracy ~Construction_and_Engineering ~crypto ~culture ~Design ~devs ~DIY ~Dogs_And_Cats ~earth ~econ ~Education ~Entertainment ~FiresidePhilosophy ~food ~gaming ~health ~history ~ideasfromtheedge ~libertarian ~lightning ~lol ~mempool ~mostly_harmless ~Music ~news ~NixOS ~openagents ~opensource ~oracle ~Ordinals_Inscriptions_Runes ~Outdoors ~Personal_Finance ~Photography ~podcasts ~privacy ~science ~security ~Stacker_Sports ~stocks ~UFOs ~Warhammer

Mention yours below

PS: opinion from territory founders does not count, but your experience and feedback definitely appreciated! Hopefully it will help new coming founders like me better understand the risks of funding and maintain a territory.

@AGORA @antic @AtlantisPleb @BenAllenG @benwehrman @birdeye21 @Bit_Chef @BitcoinOutdoors @bitcoinplebdev @boisechampion @Book_It @ch0k1 @davidw @DesertDave @Design_r @ek @elvismercury @frostdragon @globalmerchantio @grayruby @itsTomekK @jeff @kr @lloyddunne @MadBudha @MaxAWebster @MerryOscar @niftynei @OneOneSeven @oracle @PlebLab @Public_N_M_E @RDClark @siggy47 @softsimon @south_korea_ln @theschoolofbitcoin @TheWildHustle @TNStacker @TonyGiorgio @UCantDoThatDotNet

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1156 sats \ 20 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

V4V is a tough nut to crack. Everyone wants return on investment, you want value back so you give value, the problem is the value you get in return is so small it doesn't come close to helping foot the bill.

Econ I believe managed to reach profitability. But the posting fees are like 1500sats per post. I don't think I can justify 1500 per post in ~Music. That's far higher than the "normal" posting fees from before territorys existed. If, to make a territory self sustainable you require 150x what was considered the "normal" posting fees, that whole model needs looking at.

Posting content is low in my territory but engagement is high in comments. If I were able to adjust the comments/reply fees I think I could make my way to sustainability as a territory. Replies are 1sat per post. But to post a discussion or something is the only adjustable fee, people are chatting away and engaging with each other for 1sat per comment, but very few posts get posted, the ability to make the comment/reply fees adjustable might really help. Perhaps that's something for @k00b and the Devs to consider implementing?

It was mentioned before by another user but territory owners might benefit from being able to post/comment in their territory for free, but I think that idea got shot down when it was raised.

All in all, if you want to be a founder of a territory you just have to accept that this isn't going to fund itself, 1 territory out of 50 something, with even more archived that have fallen at the hurdles, being self sustainable? That's not going to work, especially if the way to self sustainability is to have fees 150x greater than what was considered "normal" posting fees.

TLDR be prepared to bleed sats for something you're passionate about, don't get into this for the money, there isn't any 🤣

268 sats \ 12 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

~Econ only costs 100 sats for a post, but it's also the one territory I know of that crowdfunds.

179 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 23 May

That’s right. There are a handful of us paying the the shortfall every month.

129 sats \ 6 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May freebie

it is a great initiative and look's like is the only territory doing so. @Jeff strategized a lot to make it happen, and I think it would be useful for other territory owners to try the same approach.

Atm it's possible to support only the reward pool, it wouldn't be nice to have a way to directly support territories too?

@Public_N_M_E would you consider testing the same approach?

71 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

It's certainly something I'm considering, the difficulty is finding time to ensure I'm available to interact with a crowdfund.

Effectively every single one of my daily posts and my various weeklies should act as a crowdfund if they were to be zapped proportionate to comments and engagement 😉

108 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 23 May

It's suggestive of what will be possible over time. Those guys are innovators, but as SN grows, and there's non-trivial money / influence to be had by effective territory management, I think you'll see more "overlays" of this kind, groups of people specializing in different aspects of territory mgmt. @siggy47 is another example of innovation in territory-running.

Things that don't seem viable now will likely be later.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @bitties 23 May freebie

Zap the owner? Unless you are looking for credit, this is the way.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

That's true, but doing so you'll never know if the funds will be re-invested in the territory or not.

I also notice that most territory owners are just sitting back, maybe watching, maybe just forgot about SN. Anyway, just thinking that potentially, territories should have a dedicated wallet that the owner (and other contributors could) have access to.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

Sitting back, nah you gotta invest your time if you want to succeed, spend some time in ~Music and ~Stacker_Sports ~Agora is another. Very very active owners.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

I love this idea. At the end of the month, if folks have contributed, say, 10K sats to the wallet, the owner gets billed 90K.

Unless they're yearlong or lifetime territories, I can't imagine many active territories have owners that have really abandoned them, since that monthly bill would keep coming up.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

My mistake, apologies, there was a territory that made it to profitability, but their posting fees were about 1500. But the name escapes me.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

Man, now I'm curious about which one. I know ~podcasts charged 1K (which is pretty much why I never posted there, in addition to the fact that most podcasts I want to share make sense in specific territories), but it looks like it's also archived.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @OneOneSeven 23 May

I think ~builders was profitable, but I'm pretty sure it's always been at 1000 sats

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

Maybe it was ~builders at 1000???? 🤔🤔 My memory of that post about profitability is sketchy. So it could be this.

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @cryotosensei 23 May

I would be willing to post something for 10 or even 21 sats even comment

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

Same, I think most of the users in my territory wouldn't care if a comment fee was 21sats or 10sats rather than 1 sat. I think the people I interact with are less bothered by price and more just enjoy the space I provide to chill and listen/share music.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

same for me, I would not care much. There's any reason why replying is set at 1sat specifically? @k00b

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Thanks for detailing the current situation on ~Music and I agree the value for territories reside in the comments, not really in the value you get back as sats.

It was mentioned before by another user but territory owners might benefit from being able to post/comment in their territory for free, but I think that idea got shot down when it was raised.

Can you remember where it was discussed? I think the idea to comment back for a fee (higher than 1 sat) could be a great feature, and a way to keep conversations cleaner helping stackers think twice before hitting reply.

What I can notice in most territories is also a really low value on amount of comments per post. I assume it's really hard to create spaces for conversation, but maybe is just my impression.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

I think it may have been siggy? Who posted about "thoughts on territories" I thought I saw it on similar when I hit reply, but as a mobile user, finding anything is impossible 🤣. Might have been this one #389003

I'm having the opposite issue in music than lack of comments, I'm getting 20ish a day and great engagement, but no zaps on the post at all. Where I see some stackers find their way to 1000s of sats a day, without even making a post... The reward leaderboard really spelled it out for me.

I had 30posts, stacked about the same as I spent, but was sat in the same bracket as users with 1 or even zero posts. Hell I've made more sats in the main saloon dropping salute emojis on posts I want to show respect to. Users zapping a salute emoji gives me better return than actually posting anything. That either tells me that no one cares about my content (possible) or people aren't zapping value they're just blanket zapping lots of stuff to try to game the rewards. There's for sure some... Teething issues ... with the V4V model.

41 sats \ 1 reply \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

That's frustrating to hear; I zap the daily posts in music (and in stackersports) because they're part of what gives the territory its personality. Same with the weekly wrap-ups in other territories I follow (like booksandarticles).

Rewarding zapping is obviously a good thing, but I do think the model would benefit from folks not being as able to game it.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

Yep. But I appreciate you showing up everyday and giving me something to listen to 👊

31 sats \ 2 replies \ @Design_r 23 May

~Design? just kidding... you need to see it in the long term

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 23 May

Thank you for your comprehensive Markdown guide the other day!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Design_r 23 May

This #468845? I'm glad you find it useful and noticed you have been really proactive around here, good work 💪

100 sats \ 7 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May freebie

@remindme in 1 year

@remindme in 1 month

@remindme in 1 day

@remindme in 1 hour

30 sats \ 6 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 23 May

This will actually work soon

30 sats \ 5 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Nice, looking forward to check posts retroactively too! Where I could find more info about it?

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 23 May

You can read about it here, where it was implemented: https://github.com/stackernews/stacker.news/pull/1159

I’m guessing it’ll be in the next deployment, and @k00b will announce it in the next SN Release post, as new features are usually announced.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nout 23 May

Hm, that's annoying. That will result in many users seeing personal reminder of one user. It takes space and is useless comment for other people if it only includes the reminder.

Or is the implementation done differently than a bot that I gave to @ ?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 23 May

It also helps to promote the feature so other users can learn of its existence 🤷‍♂️

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nout 23 May

Yeah, it's probably ok to start with it, but when users start overusing it, then it would be better to make that a native feature in the SN UI - e.g. in the tripledot dropdown menu.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

amazing! Thanks

45 sats \ 13 replies \ @frostdragon 23 May

I'm super curious if any territories have permanent ownership. No matter how slow ~FiresidePhilosophy gets, I'm always tempted to just pay the OTF and play the long game, just because I like the theme and want it to stick around.

0 sats \ 12 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

I'm super curious if any territories have permanent ownership.

Nothing is permanent: once an owner give up, the archived territory is available to anyone else willing to continue and maintain it. I also remember reading somewhere about co-ownership, but not sure if that will be implemented soon.

73 sats \ 11 replies \ @OneOneSeven 23 May

He means this:

https://m.stacker.news/32268

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @premitive1 25 May

I for one wouldn't mind @k00b dropping the price :)

10 sats \ 9 replies \ @supratic OP 25 May

you are not the only one, but I think it will be unfair with respect to those that have been paying until now

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @premitive1 25 May

nothing in life is fair. i don't remember if they committed to keeping the same prices indefinitely, but I wouldn't mind them dropping the price.

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @supratic OP 25 May freebie

nothing in life is fair.

I do not agree, you can be fair if you want. So in case the price per territory drops, would the current ones get a refund or what?

Or are you just looking to own a territory at a more accessible price for yourself? And if this is the case, what's the right price you are willing to pay?

@remindme in 3 years

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 23 May

Someone posted something similar about a month after territories launched. It would be interesting to go back and look at that list and see which territories are not around.

Back then I predicted we would see some territories merging to become more sustainable and that hasn't really happened. At least officially. I am not sure if people who were posting in now defunct territories have moved their content over to similar territories. Fitness to health for instance.

I forget what my exact prediction was but I think it was 10-15 territories by the end of the year. I think I am going to be way off on that. I think we had around 42 when I made that prediction and now we have over 50. So we definitely haven't seen the level of attrition I expected yet. Which speaks to stackers passion and commitment to their territories and SN more broadly because even popular territories are nowhere near being profitable.

Personally, I don't care about profitability. I enjoy my time on SN and the community. I am happy as long as I can cover the monthly territory fee with territory revenue and all the zaps/rewards I get throughout the month. So far that has been the case.

Anyways that's my 2 sats.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @OneOneSeven 23 May

@Public_N_M_E summed it up,

TLDR be prepared to bleed sats for something you're passionate about, don't get into this for the money, there isn't any 🤣

I think most founders knew this going in, but me especially. I didn't care about UFOs until 2023, so I was assuming almost all stackers were still at the "couldn't care less, not interested" stage. That's fine, ~UFOs will be here whenever people's interest gets piqued.

I'm trying to do two things with the territory, informing bitcoiners about UFOs and informing "UFOers" about bitcoin, and probably being labelled 'crazy' by both communities lol, that's fine, but someone has to do it. Stuff is about to get real weird.

As far as territory fees, the quicker you pay off the territory the quicker you can start making your sats back :)

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @Public_N_M_E 23 May

Sometimes I say something with value 💪💪 🤣

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @bitcoinplebdev 23 May

~devs will be here till the end

https://m.stacker.news/32252

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May freebie

👊

32 sats \ 2 replies \ @cryotosensei 23 May

Well some of these territories are already archived ;(

I think @birdeye21 announced his engagement a couple of months ago. I assume he might be too preoccupied with his wedding plans to manage his territory, ~earth. Which is why I post there wherever I can.

@DesertDave was contemplating whether he should give up ~alter_native because he finds that he can post the things he wants in other territories, anyway. I hope he keeps on maintaining it though because the title alternative primes me to think of unusual perspectives. Plus, he makes it real cheap to post there haha

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 24 May

Yes, you're right about alternative. I like it to stay here as well. It's quite interesting.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Well I assume one can plan as much little for the long run, and most of times life come up with surprises and unexpected directional changes. Hope this does not happen for SN team

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 24 May

In my belief, every territory is good. I am learning a lot from those. So I don't want any territory to be kicked out.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 24 May

~stocks, ~outdoors, ~lol and food are looking most vulnerable at the moment.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Athena 24 May

Each and every territory has its own importance.For me Books and Articles is amazing. It depends on our interest too.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 23 May

My assumption is that a lot of territories aren't held because the people want to profit of it. They're held to

call dibs on attractive territory names as a long shot. Just like domains in the beginning of the web.
as a charity/donation to the community. By people who want to support SN.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @BenAllenG 23 May

I pay for my territory with contributions to @sn, I didn't go into it expecting self sustainability but there's a reason I'm here instead of just on Reddit

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Thanks for sharing. You make a point and your territory it's really specific and does not seem to me bitcoin related. How are you finding it til now? how is the Warhammer community reacting? Are you able, or have plans to grow the Warhammer community and maybe expose them to sat-stacking?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BenAllenG 23 May

To your first point, I am a member of a local Warhammer community, and while we use discord I do think there is room for a community like Warhammer for introducing Warhammer communities to sat stacking, I've toyed with the idea of model giveaways or other rewards for community participation

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

That will be a great plus on your side. Discord still a microzoft product, and I am still not understanding why people use it. Anyhow, g'luck orange pilling the Warhammer community, I'll look forward to learning more about it, as it's a totally new world for me

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BenAllenG 23 May

Just been around for a month but life has been pretty crazy with my newborn. I haven't been able to do much territory cultivation. But I'm just surprised at any posts other than my own. Looking forward to some cross-posting in the future with Warhammer books and other media

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Congrats with the newborn 🙌

Agree cross posting will definitely help post get more visibility, and for what I remember is in the schedule! Looking forward to it too

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Hamstr 23 May

This is kinda mean post! I wouldn't want SN to lose any of the territories because if we lose one then we'll have to post to another territory with a possible much higher SAT fee and with irrelevant material.

Do not be rude to potential stackers

They're here and are excited to jump into the crypto space. I noticed If talk about RUNE(which is seriously an interesting project), ETH, or XMR I get called shitcoiner. If you want to build relationships and keep new stackers around, we should be welcoming to all. Simply do not zap a post you didn't like. You don't have to like their idea, but resorting to name-calling isn't going to get them to post into respective territories. It creates a toxic environment and they leave.

If we met in the real world and I came up to you and said, what do you think about silver or copper. You would unlikely call me a shitcoiner. So why not extend the same respect?

We should be open to new ideas or else we've just lost the purpose of a forum like style as SN I'll like to believe was meant to be. In Nostr land, notes get burdened every second, because it's free to relay notes, but here in SN, that's not the case.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Oh I'm open to new ideas, and I'll never judge you for what you say or write. You're free to believe whatever you like or your circumstances and experiences allow you to.

And this is definitely not a way to disrespect territory owners or kill their ideas. Maybe just a way to actually incentivize them to take action and maintain a stand-up for it. Following and getting inspired by others, that's why I took the time to mention all of them.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Hamstr 23 May

Some reason I've felt rejected by some of my ideas. So I stopped posting into booksandarticles of articles that I post on Nostr. I could never get feedback in that territory, so I just stopped altogether trying there. Personal_finace has outright banned me from posting there because I have XMR in a poll in there. It's disheartening.

The only idea that took hold was obsidian, and my intro to Nostr guide

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

That sucks! I agree SN community should be more open, especially the goal it's acquiring more users and have more constructions conversations. Anyhow, SN has born as bitcoin-only community and that's something newcomers like you should also understand. There's a reason why is set in this way and you should make an effort to understand it.

In the other side, no one stop you to create a territory to discuss anything non-bitcoin related, if you call it ~altcoins it would be probably successfull! and as owner, you'll be free to ban anyone that talks about bitcoin... because in fact there are many territories for that.

Something I constantly see is how unrelated contents get posted in whatever territory, just to get some traction or because of cheaper fees. @k00b @ek outlaw posts is not enough , and t will be nicer to have more moderation tools

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Hamstr 23 May

I'm not disputing it as a bitcoin only. But this has some serious limitations to some users that might want to talk about other stuff. I think Bitcoin is kool, but I also think smart contracts are cool too. I think Thorchain is wicked, you could park your BTC there and earn a yield saving account or borrow against your Bitcoin(still new) 0% interest free loan. It's putting Defi in your hands, essentially.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @supratic OP 23 May

The majority of stackers here know about that story and are probably tried to hear it. That's why I'm suggesting you to create a dedicated territory for it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Hamstr 23 May

you're killing me smalls!

you mind as well sentence me to death on the darkstar!

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/9sFkptDGqiwbv2Qipwg5xZ5TWzSlvng6Ddds_BUE5Xs/rs:fit:2560:1440/aHR0cHM6Ly9tLnN0YWNrZXIubmV3cy8zMTAyNw

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 23 May

👀

0 sats \ 11 replies \ @Fabs 23 May

Wtf, man?! That's like asking "which companies do you think will go bankrupt in the coming month(s)?, just for fun, ha ha".

Pointless post.

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

The initial dot.com boom had a site that did exactly that, believe it or not.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @didiplaywell 24 May

Fascinating

67 sats \ 1 reply \ @supratic OP 23 May freebie

well, we are in ~oracle so just wondering if someone has any prediction! your comment is not relevant and does not add any value. You could have saved a sat ;)

Some time is just fun to look back and see who had a good gut feeling

FYI: you win a downzap

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 23 May

Man, you're not only childish, you're an idiot at that!

Here, another chance to waste sats, idiot.

Edit: "your comment is not relevant and does not add any value. You could have saved a sat ;)" literally applies to your post; it's devoid of value, just speculation, and the whole list of @dds are probably a try to get some views and / or sats.

Wtf, man. Go and spend your whole balance on down zapping me, you irrelevant little kid.

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

Okay, but also @ek asked the same question a couple of months ago (in the same territory).

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic OP 23 May

Nice find! I like the values @ek used for his prediction:

Are they related to bitcoin in some way?

Is there a dedicated stacker behind them that probably won't give up easy and might still make it work (if it doesn't already)?

How much organic activity is there already?

Did the founder react to the maintenance costs in some way on SN? If so, how?

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @Fabs 23 May

And? It might just happen that I didn't notice it, what's the point you're trying to make?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 23 May

The point was that it's something that's recurred as a topic and seems to have generated actual discussion twice (at least). And beyond that, I think it's something that makes sense in a forum built on V4V to discuss what kind of value people are getting; inherent to the notion that a territory won't continue is the idea that it's not worth the fees the territory owner is paying (which is not the same as saying it's a failure, because everyone has different value thresholds).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 23 May freebie

Go Ahead, point out "what kind of value people are getting" in "Has been interesting to see so many territories popping up in the past few months, some brave ones are still trying, but honestly, I cannot see how a territory could be sustainable, imagine it being profitable... atm is utopia!

Just for fun, which territories you think will be the ones being kicked out (not renewed) next month? And what about the ones out next year?"

It reads like "what do you guys think will be the losers of the coming month? And year?

If the post was structured and worded different, as in; "which territory seems to provide the most value to people, and receives back the most? Which doesn't?"