The right real suffering \ stacker news ~mostly

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1265 sats \ 27 comments \ @elvismercury 9 Feb mostly_harmless

I think there's a right amount of real suffering, although I'm having some trouble figuring out what it is, or what 'real' means.

I have seen (I have lived) what happens when there's not enough real suffering. Others have noticed something similar:

Experience suggests that if men cannot struggle on behalf of a just cause because that just cause was victorious in an earlier generation, then they will struggle against the just cause. They will struggle for the sake of struggle. They will struggle, in other words, out of a certain boredom.

There was also this talk, about some of the complexities of suffering; and some of its virtues. (We talked about it a little on SN; the larger context may be of interest.)

I'm trying to figure out what to do with this. Like, how to "train" for it. How to welcome it into my life at a dose that I can tolerate.

An imaginary future where I have the suffering strength equivalent of a dude who can squat 500 pounds seems so fucking glorious. Not sprouting from some hard-assed macho yearning, but because it would be like an all-access pass to a rock festival filled with bands that you love; because it would unlock the most beautiful parts about being alive.

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235 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 9 Feb

I'm not sure it's the same thing, but when I was struggling as a young person I had my "if only" lists. Once you achieved a goal, there was always another one right around the corner to be anxious about. That is suffering.

I think of Bob Dylan's "When I Paint My Masterpiece: https://youtu.be/QElRIP-r9l4

The line "someday everything's gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece."

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 9 Feb

when I was struggling as a young person I had my "if only" lists. Once you achieved a goal, there was always another one right around the corner to be anxious about. That is suffering.

Yes so much. I used to believe that if only I had a girlfriend, all my problems would be solved.

Turned out that's not true at all hahaha

Now I believe that nobody is going to come and save us, we need to save ourselves

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

Highly related. What's the training, then? A more Buddhist attitude about wanting and striving?

I've always wondered at that and felt some tension: is transcending suffering the same as getting good at it?

190 sats \ 9 replies \ @Undisciplined 9 Feb

When you have a little kid, you don't look for additional sources of suffering. That's the best training I can think of.

142 sats \ 5 replies \ @Scoresby 9 Feb

100%. Children are a purifying fire.

17 sats \ 4 replies \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

Say more about the purification you have received.

1784 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby 9 Feb

From the moment a child is born, you are the only one responsible for them. Every day. Every hour.

There is no hour where you get to say "I don't want to deal with this." What you want to do can always get trumped by what they need you to do.

As they get older, it's like you have an exposed nerve walking around in the world, out of your control, but still connected to your being.

Who they become is largely dependent on how you behave. But ultimately, you have to give up, and just accept who they become -- even if it's someone you don't like that much, even if it's your fault.

Having a child is like cosigning a debt with a stranger you have never met, for an amount you don't know, and yet it's not foolish...sometimes it even pays off.

Your responsibility to your children is unique among relationships because it alone cannot be undone. This is a kind of encounter with reality that is far more valuable than any that can be revoked or stepped away from.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 11h

This. Trying to get some alone time at 11pm while my wife lays in bed with the 2 kids. Oh man

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

What a fantastic response. Thanks.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 9 Feb

That really was beautifully put. I cosign the entire sentiment.

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136 sats \ 1 reply \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 9 Feb

As a kid, though, suffering finds you aplenty -- so many lessons (hot stoves, balance, cats scratching, not getting dinner exactly when you want it) are learned with some degree of suffering, either physical or emotional.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 9 Feb

And then you get to suffer through all of those things again as a parent.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

I've thought of that before. Quite thought-provoking in its implications.

122 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 9 Feb

Nice post in related from @jimmysong: #267295

189 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 9 Feb

I think I suffer mostly out of habit having been trained in a pavlovian way through childhood sports. I also find that I'm suffering a lot and nearly all the time whether I choose to suffer or not, so I prefer to allocate that suffering to something that might yield a reward while distracting me from my emotional background noise.

I suffer somewhat pathologically. Sometimes I do it with no more purpose than I have when picking off a scab. I do it because I'm curious about what grows back. I do it because I'd rather be full of scars of my own making. I do it because I'm curious about what's left and what happens when I can't suffer anymore. I do it because if I can suffer more than most people there's some place in the world for me.

I don't know how much suffering is right, what kinds are real, what yield to expect, or where it should sprout from. But, when I'm looking for suffering, I look for something to pursue that I'm very interested in that has a low probability of reward in a future so distant it might not come. I look for a tall metaphorical mountain, situated in my favorite biome without a visible peak, and I climb it.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

I do it because if I can suffer more than most people there's some place in the world for me.

I've thought of this, too, almost as a ... redemption strategy. Like, I may have fucked up almost everything, but if I steer into this storm, maybe I can still pull it out, just because nobody else will be doing it on purpose; or at least, so few people that it might as well be nobody.

59 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 9 Feb

It's similar to pretty common startup advice. Paraphrasing:

"When choosing between two otherwise equal things, pick the harder one." This was Naval I think. IIRC the rationale was that we subconsciously bias ourselves away from hard things.

"Hard things are often a sign that something hasn't been done before." I think this was PG.

27 sats \ 1 reply \ @chaoticalHeavy 23h

Go looking for pain and suffering?

Maybe it would be better to choose love and happiness.

I get it though, people usually choose fear, so maybe suffering is better than that?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury OP 23h

If I could only pick one, I'd rather love than suffer.

But that's not really what's at issue.

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 9 Feb

If I may talk a bit with the learnings from my religious affinity, the base of Hinduism is overcoming sufferings by being a Sanyasi (A person who leaves materialistic world forever). So here's what I can tell you.

First of all, suffering, afaict, is caused by faulty thinking, perspectives, beliefs and attitudes. It depends upon the way we perceive things and react to them. So, they aren't there unless you invite them. Nonetheless the solution to the problem of suffering lies in our understanding of its underlying causes and resolving them effectively through inner transformation.

105 sats \ 4 replies \ @SatsMate 9 Feb

I don't see putting myself through suffering that much, but I will say I do run long distances and marathons... After about 9/10 miles I would say I am suffering (not severely but I feel the pain).

What going through this teaches me is discipline, finishing goals I set for myself and mantaining peak physical shape.

42 sats \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

Weight training is really good for this, too. You can really hurt. It feels meaningful.

54 sats \ 2 replies \ @SatsMate 9 Feb

Yea, I see that too! I could do better on the weight training.

My question with this is what do you do it for (other than aesthetics and ease of life)?

For running, I have a race to compete in and a PR to beat, but it seems like weight lifting doesn't have as much of these events for casuals. Thoughts?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury OP 9 Feb

Pure health reasons. Putting on muscle is about the most health-promoting thing you can do (as long as you're not doing something insane in another area.)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 9 Feb

Some ex body builders turn obese in later years.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @398ja 19h

I want to believe that reading Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning, helped prepare me for that. I was tested later in that same year, after I fell ill, was in physical pain and tormented...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @PlebeiusG 21h

Studying Buddhism helped. It puts life in perspective.

Winning also helps. If you don’t win… welll…