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Josh Levine's hard time understanding Bitcoin

Josh Levine recently posted another struggle session about Bitcoin to understand where a bitcoin gets its value from.
His argument goes like this: if there were free cookie coupons, people might end up trading them like money, but only because somewhere there was someone who actually wanted a free cookie. If the coupons can't actually get someone a free cookie, then they never would have worked as money.
Josh says bitcoins are coupons that don't get people cookies.

T-1, T-2, T-3, and...intrinsic value!

He doesn't mention it in the post, but Josh is aware of the Misean Regression Theorem. This theorem suggests that if you look back at the history of anything used as money, it always starts out having some value by being useful as not-money.
No good can be employed for the function of a medium of exchange which at the very beginning of its use for this purpose did not have exchange value on account of other employments. Mises, Human Action
Looking back at a few of the other posts Josh has written on this topic (he says he really wants to like bitcoin), I found several commenters who brought up the Regression Theorem and various explanations for how Bitcoin satisfies it.
”The value of money now is based on the value of money established previously when the money had actual intrinsic value, even though that value is no longer associated with the money. This happens because people get used to the money having value while it still does and therefore do not care (notice?) when that original source of value is gone.”
He also says he "wholeheartedly doesn't believe it!"

Quack! Where does the value come from, Josh?!

My (personal) test if a thing has "value" (probably better called "intrinsic value"): Is there someone who wants the thing as an end in itself -- as opposed to a thing where its only use it that it can be traded for something else.
Of course this leads us dangerously close to the precipice of regression. If value can only come from someone wanting a thing as an end in itself, what does Josh think of money?
Currencies do not have value in and of themselves.
This is something Josh says in a neat little story he wrote about being on a desert island with a guy named Nakamoto. In another post (How a Bitcoin Is Not a Dollar), he surmises that dollars have value because they represent a claim on the US government:
You can redeem a dollar for the right to not get arrested for not paying your taxes. You can redeem it for the right to transport a shipping container of steel over the US boarder.
(Let's ignore for this argument that Josh is implying that our government puts all of us under constant threat of jail and violence and the only way we avoid this is by giving our governors cookie coupons -- as if our natural state is jail, and we only find freedom if we are able to buy it from the government.)
When Josh turns his dour eye to Bitcoin, he doesn't find any redemptive qualities at all:
I think that under the standard interpretation, people only buy bitcoins because they expect to be able to sell/trade them later – so (by my definition) this bitcoin has no intrinsic value.

Satoshi don't care

As I was scrounging around for more on this topic, I came across a lovely thread on BitcoinTalk from 2011 (actually, someone linked to it in the comments on Josh's blog). As is so often the case in Bitcoin, somebody was already thinking about it.
The thread starts with a post called "Bitcoin does NOT violate Mises' Regression Theorem" and gives a nice explanation of Regression Theorem and then attempts to apply it to Bitcoin, ultimately coming to the point that Bitcoin satisifes the theorem by getting it's ultimate value from...other money.
I can't say that I found this very satisfying.
But what's really cool is that Satoshi replied to the thread.
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you've suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it.
"Potential" usefulness in exchange is interesting. Voskuill has a post about the Regression Theorem, too, where he suggests that the theorem is actually broken by its own logic.
The theorem fails to terminate its regression by not explaining how a person comes to value something for its original utility.
He notes that the first time people come into contact with anything new, they have to guess at its usefulness (and, therefore, its value). That guess is subjective (meaning there's not really any wrong or right guess).
The first valuation of a thing, like all after, can be for any reason, including its use as a money.
As more people encounter the thing, what looks like "intrinsic value" may emerge; but really what we mean by that is "pretty widespread agreement about the usefulness of the thing." New ways of using a thing can change the intrinsic value.

Bitcoin gets its value because people use it

People didn't start using bitcoin because it was valuable. People started using bitcoin and it became valuable because they were using it.
While this may not be a satisfying answer to very many people (it wasn't satisfying to Josh when I left it as a comment on his blog), Satoshi pretty much nails it:
But if there were nothing in the world with intrinsic value that could be used as money, only scarce but no intrinsic value, I think people would still take up something.
Bitcoin gets its value because people are social and we grab on to things that help us cooperate with each other. It's not like language emerged because sounds had some intrinsic meaning, nor did all writing start as pictograms. Language has meaning because humans formed groups around the shared use of similar sounds.
So: going back to Josh's definition of value from above, the end people want out of bitcoin is that particular cooperation with others it which can only exist if we use it.
Put the wrong link to Josh's most recent bitcoin article above.
Here is the correct link:
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Great Post! I really like that Satoshi regression theorem quote. I know @Undisciplined has talked about RT application to bitcoin. I don't recall if he mentioned Satoshi's take.
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I don't really like it and I don't think it's right in terms of how he's using "intrinsic value".
The issue is that nothing has intrinsic value. All value is subjective. There's nothing any more intrinsic about gold being pretty than there is about the bitcoin ledger being nifty.
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All value is subjective. There's nothing any more intrinsic about gold being pretty than there is about the bitcoin ledger being nifty.
Gold is widely used in tech industry. Doesn't that make it intrinsically valuable?
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The "gold has productive value" idea doesn't solve the Regression problem anyway, since production has no value in the last period. Heck, not even food would have value as everything ends anyway. Maybe the only thing that would have value in the last period is things that give pleasure.
But, all that to say, I don't think the Regression Theorem has much explanatory power for anything outside of very specific strategic scenarios, like a board game.
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Yes, and my sense is that Josh would agree with you. From his replies to folks, it looks like he finds the regression theorem a little silly.
The main points of his argument are:
  1. people only really want things that are an end in themselves.
  2. things that are a means to an end still need to have some aspect in which they are an end.
  3. what is bitcoin's end?
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The second point is the silly one and the third point makes sense after realizing that.
There are any number of factors of production that nobody wants for any reason other than they are a means to a desired end.
Do people just love talking to lawyers? Or, do they pay heavily to do so in order to reach a desired end?
After listening to Bob Murphy's explanation, the Regression Theorem is conceptually useful, but practically it has almost no teeth.
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No, that just pushes the analysis back a step. The technology it's used in is also only valued subjectively.
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According to you, the only intrinsically valuable things are food, drink and shelter?
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No, those are also subjectively valuable. All values are subjective (based in a self), rather than objective (based in external reality).
Food, water, and shelter are only valuable because there are people who value them.
30 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 7 Feb
Industrial uses make it less ideal as money. Otherwise iron would be the best money of all time. Guy Swan has a good explanation on this.
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I agree 100% with his analogy not being particularly useful.
What I do like about Satoshi's reply is his last little bit where he says people just seem to like having something to use like this.
Also, my read of his tone is that he didnt really care all that much. (But this is a very subjective analysis on my part)
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I read it the same way.
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What about cigarettes in prison?
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I don't know why people value cigarettes, but I don't, which means it must be subjective.
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Alright. I happen to also recall clients telling me they use rolls of toilet paper as money.
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I do understand why people value toilet paper, but there are people who don't use it by choice, which means it's only subjectively valuable.
Josh tries to get at the "intrinsic value" concept by talking about ends and means.
There are some things people pretty much only want as a means of getting something else.
Usually, people say money fits in this category. Here's an article where Rothbard says it several different ways.
Then there are things that people actually want, like cigarettes. Cigarettes can be used as a means (prison currency), but they were created as an end in and of themselves. I think Josh's take is that money can't be used as an end, and so it needs to be tied to some "real" end.
That's where I think he's wrong. People can want anything as an end.
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Isn't it like the classic chicken-and-egg scenario of Bitcoin?
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So if the dollar only has value because you have to pay your taxes with it. Silly. Then it should have absolutely no value to me living in Canada or anyone else outside of the United States. Yet it does.
"A claim on the US government". Gee thanks a claim on an entity that is insolvent and can only perpetuate it self my diluting my claim.
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I don't think he is saying only (and I hope I didn't imply that).
My read of the argument is that money has to get "jump-started" with some kind of use-value. Once others want it for money purposes, it's just that: money. But people don't want money just to have money (so the argument goes), and some number of people do want money for the use-value of the money -- and that's what keeps the whole system going round.
I disagree with him that there is no end in bitcoin itself.
EDIT: "jump-started" may not be what he's getting at, either. It may be more like the little pushes that contribute to resonance in a swing.
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Ok so what would be the use value of gold? It's shiny, ornamental? Certainly 5000 years ago it wasn't being used in semi-conductors. It's value was its scarcity, indestructability, fungibility. Bitcoin's use value is similar. Forget claim on an insolvent entity, it is a claim on a virtually indestructible monetary network.
I will mark Josh down as "I have known about bitcoin for a long time and I dismissed it while watching it slowly take over the world and I better double down because I am too proud to admit I might have been wrong". There are millions of Joshes in the world.
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There are millions of Joshes in the world.
They congregate on r/buttcoin Josh is more articulate than most there. His arguments at least have some basis in Austrian economics. He could position himself as the Buttcoin Overlord.
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Buttcoin is such a sad place. And they used to be so funny...
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102 sats \ 1 reply \ @Artilektt 6 Feb
Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it.
To me, Satoshi nails it here. For some reason, I don't know why, people seem to never consider collectability as a "use" that generates initial value. In fact, this is the whole point of Nick Szabo's paper Shelling Out on the origins of money as collectibles.
In the beginning, some Bitcoin users just wanted to collect bitcoins. They wanted to have a higher balance. I don't know why this is not considered a "use".
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I agree with you, but I'd go further and say bitcoin doesn't need to be valued as a collectible to have value.
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People started using bitcoin and it became valuable because they were using it.
I think you're exactly right on this. Bob Murphy talked about this at some point and gave a great explanation for why almost all references to the Regression Theorem are missing the point, when it comes to bitcoin.
Value is subjective, so if a couple of nerds think it's neat to transfer 10k bitcoin for a couple of pizzas, we have no grounds to argue with those preferences. From there, we have an exchange rate and price discovery can proceed.
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Cool Josh. Please explain where fiat gets it's value. It's just a coupon for a cookie.
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His explanation is that gov't money gets its value initially from being a claim on the "right not to be thrown in jail for not paying your taxes."
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So the explanation is a great argument for buying bitcoin...
Love it.
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The true and only value of bitcoin is that it is not backed by political dishonesty. Everything else bitcoin does can be done by governments!
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I like this: value through negativity (probably not the best way to phrase it). You are on point with your observation. As far as I can see the main value prop of bitcoin is censorship resistance.
Strangely, I think Josh would agree. His hangup seems to be on a theoretical level. He'd probably be happier if he just didn't worry about it.
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