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134 sats \ 25 replies \ @siggy47 6 Feb \ on: Josh doesn't know where Bitcoin gets its value bitcoin
Great Post! I really like that Satoshi regression theorem quote. I know @Undisciplined has talked about RT application to bitcoin. I don't recall if he mentioned Satoshi's take.
I don't really like it and I don't think it's right in terms of how he's using "intrinsic value".
The issue is that nothing has intrinsic value. All value is subjective. There's nothing any more intrinsic about gold being pretty than there is about the bitcoin ledger being nifty.
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All value is subjective. There's nothing any more intrinsic about gold being pretty than there is about the bitcoin ledger being nifty.
Gold is widely used in tech industry. Doesn't that make it intrinsically valuable?
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The "gold has productive value" idea doesn't solve the Regression problem anyway, since production has no value in the last period. Heck, not even food would have value as everything ends anyway. Maybe the only thing that would have value in the last period is things that give pleasure.
But, all that to say, I don't think the Regression Theorem has much explanatory power for anything outside of very specific strategic scenarios, like a board game.
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Yes, and my sense is that Josh would agree with you. From his replies to folks, it looks like he finds the regression theorem a little silly.
The main points of his argument are:
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people only really want things that are an end in themselves.
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things that are a means to an end still need to have some aspect in which they are an end.
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what is bitcoin's end?
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The second point is the silly one and the third point makes sense after realizing that.
There are any number of factors of production that nobody wants for any reason other than they are a means to a desired end.
Do people just love talking to lawyers? Or, do they pay heavily to do so in order to reach a desired end?
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Perhaps I have oversimplified his second point.
People probably don't just enjoy holding dollars. They like what dollars can get them. In that sense dollars are just a means.
However, there are also some things only dollars can get you (you can only pay US tax obligations in dollars).
So dollars have an end for Josh.
Lawyers may be a means to a lot of things, but there are some things you can only get if you hire them.
I have a feeling Josh does not count bitcoin's censorship resistance as an end.
After listening to Bob Murphy's explanation, the Regression Theorem is conceptually useful, but practically it has almost no teeth.
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No, that just pushes the analysis back a step. The technology it's used in is also only valued subjectively.
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According to you, the only intrinsically valuable things are food, drink and shelter?
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No, those are also subjectively valuable. All values are subjective (based in a self), rather than objective (based in external reality).
Food, water, and shelter are only valuable because there are people who value them.
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You're not saying that there are people who don't attach any value to these 3 things, are you? Or are you just saying that different people value them differently?
I agree 100% with his analogy not being particularly useful.
What I do like about Satoshi's reply is his last little bit where he says people just seem to like having something to use like this.
Also, my read of his tone is that he didnt really care all that much. (But this is a very subjective analysis on my part)
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I read it the same way.
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I don't know why people value cigarettes, but I don't, which means it must be subjective.
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I do understand why people value toilet paper, but there are people who don't use it by choice, which means it's only subjectively valuable.
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Josh tries to get at the "intrinsic value" concept by talking about ends and means.
There are some things people pretty much only want as a means of getting something else.
Usually, people say money fits in this category. Here's an article where Rothbard says it several different ways.
Then there are things that people actually want, like cigarettes. Cigarettes can be used as a means (prison currency), but they were created as an end in and of themselves. I think Josh's take is that money can't be used as an end, and so it needs to be tied to some "real" end.
That's where I think he's wrong. People can want anything as an end.
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