Request for comments: improving our referral system \ stacker news ~meta

Request for comments: improving our referral system

2262 sats \ 49 comments \ @k00b 28 Jun meta

Our current referral system sucks. I think we first introduced it a few years ago and haven't revisited it since. I'd like to improve it such that when someone is on the fence about sharing SN, they are reminded they can make good sats from it.

the current referral system

Currently, if you refer someone, either by them signing up with an invite link or after visiting through a referral link, you get:

21% of any boost or job fees that they pay
2.1% of any zaps they receive

The problem with the system as is:

few people use boost or job fees
2.1% of zaps for the average stacker isn't a whole lot
we don't do a good job of making referrals or the earnings people get from them visible

a few random ideas we've discussed for a future referral system

distribute some fixed portion of the daily rewards pool to referrers, e.g. 10-20%
make a daily notification, similar to the rewards notification, for referrals which show how much you earned from referring for the day
change the referral scheme to something new. e.g. if we're giving 20% of rewards to referrers:
- allow people to accumulate multiple referrers, e.g.
  - 10% goes to stackers who referred someone for the first time ever, ie they are the permanent referrers for the stackers they brought to the site for the first time
  - the other 10% goes to stackers who referred an existing stacker to the site for the first time that day
- make the referrer(s) of a stacker change every time they click a referrer link, i.e. a last referrer wins "game"
make every link to SN a referrer link (@ek's idea)
- every item page is implicitly a referral attributed to the OP of the item
- every profile page is implicitly a referral attributed to the stacker featured on the profile page
- every territory page is implicitly a referral attributed to the territory founder
make the url bar display the stacker's referral link as they navigate through the site so that they don't have to make the referral link by hand or click the share button, i.e. make it easier to make a referral link than not

what do you want?

Stackers often have a way better mind for what SN needs than we do. SN is mostly a collection of ideas you all have had that we've implemented. Consider this a brainstorm where there is no wrong idea, and the more wild an crazy the better. Do you have any fun ideas for referrals?

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122 sats \ 2 replies \ @jeff 22h

Add external traffic contribution to the daily rewards.

Ie, if you post content that gets relatively more external attention, tilt the daily rewards in their favor.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 22h

I'd love to do this. If it were you, how would you deal with bots/sybils being used to generate traffic?

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeff 18h

First, I'd keep that part of the code closed-source. Treat it like a black box, an extension, to the open source parts. The goal for the extension is fast inference, using traffic metadata to predict, probability-of-bot.

Second, I'd run a few models in parallel, all trying to compete for bot detection.

Third, I'd explore joining data sets, to improve the models.

Tech wise - its a mix of python, kubeflow, maybe snowflake.

Data wise - its probably a mix of vendor + quality of traffic + a training set comprised of human curated real-user activity.

142 sats \ 3 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 29 Jun

I'm really intrigued by #4 (either by itself or in conjunction with something else). It's a great way to add value to older posts that are still getting attention (even if they're not getting zapped).

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 29 Jun

Good point

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 29 Jun

Part of the goal I hope to realize with a new system is watering old content, and incentivizing stackers to direct each other to watering old content.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb 29 Jun

It also incentivizes different types of content. I’m just not going to be sharing articles on UTXO consolidation with normie friends and co-workers (more or less everyone I know in the real world). I can share gobs of articles from the food or books territories with them though. I’d imagine that would both expose more of them to Bitcoin/nostr/freedom content and also get people writing more and higher quality content in the non-Bitcoin/nostr/freedom tech territories.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @MerryOscar 29 Jun

I think both the daily referral notification and also making every link a referral link are great ideas!

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 29 Jun

Expounding on the Daily Rewards idea, we can perhaps explore how Cointiply does it.

Every referral will help his referrer gain some lucky draw entries. At the end of every month, a lucky draw is held to determine the winners of the Daily Rewards. So, the more referrals you get, the higher chances you will have to net the bonus sats.

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 29 Jun

I have only one thing to say about this: please do not encourage too much the "earning" part. You will convert SN into an assmilking cow, and sockpuppets accounts, creating a snowball effect for attracting shitcoiners focused only in grabbing "free sats".

SN must continue to support Proof of Work not otherwise.

Referrals that do not post themselves an x amount of items in a month do not get any sats from their referees.

122 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 29 Jun

2.1% of zaps for the average stacker isn't a whole lot.

Yeah, we can increase it a little.

distribute some fixed portion of the daily rewards pool to referrers, e.g. 10-20%

This may work. But it shouldn't be a daily approach, rather make it a monthly deal and only count active referrals.

make every link to SN a referrer link (@ek's idea)

I think that's already there. I always have my nym in the end of URL. Isn't it like making every link a refferal link?

The landing page has to be little more aggressive. I mean when someone new lands on SN, it's not that easy to find a 'sign up' deal. We can make it like 'let the new people read a preview, hide the remainder of the post, and ask them to join SN before they can read the whole ....

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 30 Jun

Thanks for asking.

Make it easier to people to sign up with a wallet. Make it brain-dead easy, as much as possible. Try it out with people, watch them trying to do it and see where they get stuck.

I've been signed up for a while, but in my recollection, getting signed in with a wallet so that you can easily send and receive sats was not simple. And insofar as there is help available, in my recollection (haven't checked recently) I don't believe the help is easily accessible or easy to search.

121 sats \ 3 replies \ @d1 29 Jun

Weird idea I had..

Referrals could be swapped for mystery booty links, like one in so many links are assigned to current stackers. like everyone gets 100 usable links, 10 of those have satoshis, one has a mystery random satoshi prize.

They could be weighted higher for stackers that have posted more.

This may all be silly and unfeasible, I just wanted to suggest something fun, but also of value. I imaged people could print them out and leave them in places, like a bookmark in a random book, or a coaster in a cafe/bar.

Random thoughts /off.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @OneOneSeven 29 Jun

You can make 'invite links' that have sats waiting for them when they sign up. You can set the amount of sats, and how many times the link can be redeemed. https://stacker.news/invites

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @d1 29 Jun

Maybe this 'advertising' of features is something that could be improved upon? 🤔

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @d1 29 Jun

Ah!

I think that was pretty much my idea. My fault for not seeing all of this you can do in SN. I've seldom used invites/referrals with any service, my bad 😂

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 29 Jun

Glad you are looking at this. I really like invite links. I am going to give this some thought and get back to you tomorrow.

120 sats \ 2 replies \ @SatsMate 29 Jun

#4 is my favorite. I also thinking increasing the bonus to 10-15% as the referral is better than 2%. Maybe the person starts out also with a credit of 100-300 sats? I remember when I first started I went zap crazy, didn't have enough sats to post and left the site.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 29 Jun

I'd love to figure out a way to give money to new stackers, but I haven't been able to think of a way to defend it against fraud. The best we've been able to do is let them post/comment for free and start earning sats.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 29 Jun

I agree.

post/comment for free and start earning sats.

This way those who are interested will definitely show up. I remember how in my early days, I was left without any sats but I could post/comment for free once again. So, there's no issues of giving away free sats to someone who joins.

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @Car 29 Jun

Maybe a contest every week around referrals? Top 50 gets the bulk of it.

I know @PlebLab sends out weekly automated posts on Twitter.

Also like @ek idea. Smart growth hacking.

That's all I got.

23 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 29 Jun

I like the contest idea. Big prizes attract more attention.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 29 Jun

What about someone creates a lot of referrals by himself? It can easily be cheated considering we do allow to create multiple accounts.

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinsreporter 29 Jun

The contest idea may bring a lot of fake referrals. There are some black sheep everywhere.

It is also easier considering SN allows to create multiple accounts...

However, if we differentiate between 'Active and Inactive' that may solve it. But again, it can be manipulated.

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 29 Jun

I do not agree with you. Someone can cheat you in this direction for at least one or two weeks, not more than that. But in the long run only good people will win the contest. who will genuinely work

100 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined 28 Jun

We talked about this last time it came up, but I prefer a cumulative approach to the switching one.

I.e. whenever you use one of my referral links I get an increased share of referral revenue from you.

It probably should be bigger than it is now. Referrals are very important for site growth and none of us generate very many. That sounds like something that needs to pay more to me.

69 sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b OP 28 Jun

I dug it up: #506806

I was overthinking in my response. All a stacker needs to know is "I share links and get sats."

Your idea prevents gaming the timing of someone clicking on referral link too.

Here's another post from kr a few months earlier: #259322

@sorukumar shared an article that I missed.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 28 Jun

I forgot about @kr's suggestion to use "last person zapped". I like that, too.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b OP 28 Jun

We could even make it compatible with your idea and @ek's idea.

Any action/appreciation you inspired in another stacker, earns you a share of their referrals.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 29 Jun

From the article, it sounds like maybe SN referrals are working about as well as they can be expected to.

Expect less than 10% of your users to convert a successful referral.

Also, they recommend having a data scientist involved in the planning, although they don't say why exactly. If you figure out why you should have one, I volunteer my services.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 29 Jun

Given how little time we've put into referrals, if we're already achieving 10%, we should be able to do a lot better.

I don't know why we'd need a data scientist yet but I volunteer to let you volunteer.

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @OneOneSeven 28 Jun

Off the top of my head, maybe something like a milestone reward for referrers and referees if they actively use the site for a month, year etc. For some reason I'm thinking "new hat type" along with this.

Something extra if someone you invited founds a new territory?

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b OP 28 Jun

I like this! Maybe it can forge some kind of commemorative bond after enough time. hmmmmm

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @OneOneSeven 29 Jun

Right, if we're building a town, we want most to come and stay, and share their talents.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OneOneSeven 29 Jun

A bowler hat for referrers that bring productive stackers.

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinAbhi 29 Jun

I like the ideas. Specially "make every link to SN a referrer link".

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @didiplaywell 29 Jun

make every link to SN a referrer link

This is by far the best idea above all. I think this one alone is the correct approach, because referral links often feel invasive or even lame, while ek's idea is fair, organic and elegant. 10/10

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 29 Jun freebie

Thanks for the nice words! blushes

referral links often feel invasive

Yes, I feel the same way. That's also why I don't like #5. Would make them even more invasive (even though one can opt-out via settings).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @tilolupili20 29 Jun

This is interesting because I thought I was the only one who thought this

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 29 Jun

1, 2, 4 and 5 sound interesting, but 3 seems to be an unnecessary spin to 1.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @watchmancbiz 29 Jun

I really like that you share an individual post link, and it gets tracked. Please keep this feature. This is the best of it, I think.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullama 29 Jun

On point 4 I would like to make sure that comments are also included in this system

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 29 Jun

Oh for sure! That’s what I meant by “item” - posts and comments.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 29 Jun

It would be very interesting yo have a competition. I love them. A daily competition, idk, maybe a weekly or monthly would be better.

The third point of the ideas is not understandable. Should be a little more simple. Also, people who only come here and don't engage with posts or comments?

Imo, it should be straight. The referral earnings should increase significantly from 2.5% t0 10% and that would work. If ghat also doesn't work ... do some more reforms...

I mean take it step by step.. something will work..

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 29 Jun

Maybe just don't do it. There might come a time that scammers consistently create new users to drain as many sats as they can.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 29 Jun freebie

the other 10% goes to stackers who referred an existing stacker to the site for the first time that day

I think another idea was that every day, you would become referred by the person who you zapped the most the previous day.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @NaOD 28 Jun outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.