1 sat \ 44 replies \ @ek 15 Jun freebie \ parent \ on: What are your thoughts on Bitcoin losing the Darknet bitcoin
I unfortunately zapped this comment before I read this:
And especially before I read this:
Could SN work (non-custodially as planned for the near future) without instant payments with low fees? Do regulators care about which coin is used or is it about money transmission? Where is SN on monero? Or any company building on top of monero? When will monero stop being a niche currency with real adoption outside of darknet markets?
Is store of value important for sound money? Is monero a better store of value than bitcoin?
Is monero better at separating money and state than bitcoin? Is monero even about that or just about hiding yourself forever from the state?
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Oh, now I have accidentally outlawed it. I just wanted to take my votes from the 1k sats back by downzapping 1k sats.
After realizing my mistake, I zapped 100 sats but that didn't un-outlaw it even though my net zap as far as votes should be concerned should now be 100 sats. 🤔
You're sending money thru intermediaries on SN (custodial zaps)
Revisit the central point of Bitcoin
"When will monero stop being a niche currency with real adoption outside of darknet markets?"
All white markets are permissioned. Bitcoins entire value prop rests on being permissionless. Regulators can impose any arbitrary restriction they want on white markets up to, and including, banning Bitcoin transactions. Darknet markets are ironically the only "real" adoption. DNMs are a subset of Black markets AKA the only permissionless markets that are relevant to Bitcoins value prop.
If you're going to have your transactions permissioned anyway fiat is much better for that. At least everyone accepts fiat as payment.
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DNMs are a subset of Black markets AKA the only permissionless markets that are relevant to Bitcoins value prop.
Afaik, most if not all DNMs use escrow which is not permissionless. DNMs regularly exit scam by allowing payments to go in but not out. So how exactly are DNMs pernssionless?
I'll give you a point about SN requiring permission but you're also missing some points which I don't have time or desire to explain. Maybe later.
this is the sort of low IQ inbred maxi talking point i wrote about. Your chart is in relation to BTC, so this make you an NGU cultist.
It's kept its value against USD just fine and more importantly is the only coin actually used. Bitcoiners just Hodl.
Is monero better at separating money and state than bitcoin?
Ask the entire markets of extra-state dark economy. What do you mean by separating money from state if not the freemarket ? Can you name a better example of a functioning version ?
You think your little hot dog stands at bitcoin conventions that take LN payments is the separation of state and money ?
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Gold holds up pretty well against the UsD too. But the fact that bitcoin exists and is continuing to grow and being accepted means that whatever your favorite currency is, it is trending towards zero.
Imagine using monero to buy a coffee and waiting 2 minutes for it to confirm. It’s really like 20 mins (10 blocks) incase of a block reorg. It’s not going to happen until they have L2’s on XMR. But there are less devs, less network effects and a much smaller community so it’s going to take time. And in that time, bitcoin will likely have better privacy tools that will further diminish moneros market.
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Monero has 0-conf tx for point of sale and regular users. No need to wait, but one does need to wait to spend. Way better than the route failure channel nightmare of LN. I know, i've witnessed trying to use the most self-custodial version of it , and it failing live, in a way monero never has.
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The waiting part is irrelevant for digital purchases and businesses where the customer doesn't immediately leave (restaurants, movies, entertainment, etc).
As for places where the customer pays and immediately leaves, businesses already factor in fraud into the current system (chargebacks, counterfiet, etc), so that's nothing new. It just has to be better. They can pay with 0-conf which is immediate. Double Spend Proofs make this even more difficult to commit fraud (Store would know within a couple seconds if customer tried/did double spend. Awkward. They would also have to do the double spend and succeed or fail within the first few seconds or it wouldn't work. Original transaction would far too propagated if they waited) Either way, double-spends on Bitcoin and Monero is extremely low especially when compared to traditional currency.
You can also stratify your risks and wait for a certain number of confirmations depending how large the purchase is.
It always seems like network effects matter so much to Bitcoiners until another currency has it then it doesn't matter (Monero is the king of privacy coins and there isn't even a close second) Funny how that works.
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Another option, you could use Monero-based ecash for places where you absolutely needed those "instant" transactions. Where finality was more important than self-custody
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Private, anonymous, cheap, fungible, targeted censorship-resistant (Bitcoin isnt).
Fair distribution is not unique to Bitcoin. Monero had no pre-mine, dev fund, or any of that.
I get you don't like Monero, but at least be accurate.
You can't learn to use Bitcoin privately because it can never be private. Transparent chains are mutually exclusive with privacy. Coinjoins don't make your transactions private.
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Monero is definitely good from a privacy perspective, but there are still the issues that make it unrealistic for me that I can reach the adoption level of bitcoin.
First the supply is not auditable, risk of an inflation hack, has already happened with zcash.
Also I am still not convinced that it can scale. I was listening recently to an interview with someone that is highly regarded in the monero community about potential scaling solution and his two suggestions were:
- Scaling through elastic block size: The block size discussion has been held enough time and it simply leads to centralization. Certainly, even Andreas Antonopoulos admitted recently, that you could always increase it a little as hardware improves, but looking at how much fatter transactions are in monero compared to bitcoin, I see the monero blockchain already exceeding the 8TB SSD size, if it had the current scale of bitcoin adoption. 8 TB is currently more or less the maximum you can get for consumer level SSDs.
- It can always scale through other coins: This is just fucking ridiculous, I really don't see how someone in all seriousness can use such an argument. This is like me saying that bitcoin can scale through dogecoin and litecoin.
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As for unknown inflation risk I'll give you that. Monero is technically more at risk (thats the trade off - privacy VS auditability). But Pedersen Commitments and Range Proofs are pretty well established at this point. They're based on cryptography from the 80s so I'm not very worried. Zcash was messing with some untested neo moon math at the time so that is not surprising.
There are other critical areas where Bitcoin uses cryptography for security, yet these concerns never seem to come up there. Which seems a bit convenient to me.
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But Pedersen Commitments and Range Proofs are pretty well established at this point. They're based on cryptography from the 80s so I'm not very worried.
I haven't heard of that before, have to look more into it. Thanks for sharing
There are other critical areas where Bitcoin uses cryptography for security, yet these concerns never seem to come up there. Which seems a bit convenient to me.
Can you give some examples?
What meaningful level of adoption do you think Bitcoin will reach? If it is even adopted world wide, yet 99% of users are transacting with custodians and under permissioned white markets...those transactions are pretty meaningless for it's core value prop. Might as well use fiat in those cases because there is no difference. I don't think most people want to transact with Bitcoin or Monero in any true sense:
https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle
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Gigablockers are just as ridiculous as microblockers. Your blocks can be 1KB small, but if no one can afford to make a transaction on your chain no one is going to run a node for it. Nodes will also centralize with adoption over time if they are too small.
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I don't know if you're expecting me to defend some other persons argument?...Well Bitcoiners are literally pushing Ecash as a method to scale Bitcoin, so your camp is not very different.
I think we can afford to scale the blocksize conservatively...just a little 👇
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Another thing, that is not discussed often enough, when Monero is sold as an idiot proof privacy solution is the risk of post quantum deanonymization. Even monero researchers agree, that this is inevitable, it might be 5 years from now, it might be 40 years. And while it's generally accepted, that coins can switch their encryption algorithms when quantum computers become are real thing, nobody can remove what has already been written to the ledger.
So depending on your threat model, it might be necessary even with monero to act like transactions are traceable, the same way you would do with bitcoin. One could argue, that lightning can provide even more protection here, as the transactions are dispersed across different nodes.
What meaningful level of adoption do you think Bitcoin will reach? If it is even adopted world wide, yet 99% of users are transacting with custodians and under permissioned white markets...those transactions are pretty meaningless for it's core value prop. Might as well use fiat in those cases because there is no difference. I don't think most people want to transact with Bitcoin or Monero in any true sense
There are different reasons why someone would want to use Bitcoin. Circumventing government restrictions and surveillance can be one of them, preventing governments from stealing from you through money printing is another one. So I don't see why not everyone on this planet can gain from using it. And yes, on-chain bitcoin together with lightning are not enough for this, but there are still enough people within bitcoin who are trying to find solutions without compromising self custody.
but if no one can afford to make a transaction on your chain no one is going to run a node for it.
That's why we have additional layers. Big value movements happen on the first layer, smaller on the higher layers -> total adoption still going up. Also, I don't think the bitcoin community is fundamentally against an increase of blocksize (we had indirectly some increase even with segwit). The trade-offs are just taken much more carefully into account.
I don't know if you're expecting me to defend some other persons argument?...Well Bitcoiners are literally pushing Ecash as a method to scale Bitcoin, so your camp is not very different.
The difference is people in the Bitcoin community are also receiving a lot of criticism for making such statements, while the monero community seems quite complacent with these solutions.
What do you believe about Monero? Can it handle the current throughput of bitcoin and lightning without running into issues? Just through bigger blocks? Or which role do you think Monero will play? Will it just remain a niche currency for Dark markets?
It started from a sh$tcoin and I guess whoever started it had a pretty high time preference as the block reward was done in less than 10 years. Then they hardforked a tail emission and everyone went along with it. When will it change again?
Bitcoin bought without KYC, coin joined and open a LN channel from it is good enough privacy for the vast majority of ,people. I do wish more would do this, but takes time to learn.
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Who cares what it started from, it forked off and did it's own thing.
Yea sorry, you can't control who all uses a piece of software or not. That's FOSS. Most users decided to use the tail emission fork just like most users decided to leave the original shitcoin it was created from.
Dude most users are never going to manage inbound/outbound liquidity, deal with channel closures, synchronous payment, etc. That's ridiculous to expect that. Especially for lackluster privacy you would gain doing that. Ecash has more of a shot than that happening, but I'm sure you know the major trade offs with that.
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Bitcoin with better privacy will never happen. Or have you forgotten the recent past with Samourai and Coinjoin? Bitcoin is mainstream and still not private. That will not change since Satoshi disappeared after the CIA visit.
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All your comments are not visible. You have to activate the wild west mode first. What a joke. The truth hurts.
People are working on it and tipping has been working on some forums for a while.
https://monero.town/post/3068646
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1d54gi7/monero_tips_on_nostr/
https://rebelnet.me/news/0xe037eaa0a7d252c9a9
the point is: because of the design choices in monero, Privacy is user friendly and LN like low fee by design.
don't worry, you made a community donation
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You're talking to a bunch of kids who don't want to hear the truth. None of them use Bitcoin as money. Because they don't need it. They're doing too well. Only when problems arise will they understand.