pull down to refresh

@soggycakes posted about this Nic Carter when it first came out (#1292739) but it's a doozy and I thought it would be interesting to talk about it.
Carter starts off with a strong statement:
I’ll posit in this piece that the expected value of the emergence of a cryptographically relevant quantum computer (CRQC) is sufficiently negative for Bitcoin that it should motivate us to take action today.
Then Carter lists the arguments in support of a shorter timeline for the appearance of a cryptographically relevant quantum computer from what he considers most compelling to least.
  1. Governments are planning for a post-quantum world
  2. Qubit counts are scaling rapidly
  3. Investment in quantum firms is inflecting
  4. Several major quantum milestones have been achieved this year
  5. Quantum firms project breaking ECC by 2028-2033
  6. The number of qubits needed to break crypto systems is dropping
  7. Bitcoin is itself a bug bounty for quantum supremacy
  8. Quantum is a race with geopolitical stakes like AGI
  9. AI could accelerate the pace of quantum development
  10. Credible people have revised their quantum timelines
It is telling that his first order concern is that governments and standards bodies like NIST are requiring a shift to quantum resistant cryptography on a relatively short timeline (2035).
Carter has clearly spent a lot of time on the subject and no doubt has a well-informed opinion. However, I'm not inclined to agree with him. Most of the arguments he brings come from people who have a strong incentive to overestimate quantum computing advances. Also, Carter himself has been a little alarmist on this subject lately, but when I dig into the sources, it isn't as grim as he makes it sound.
BitMex research had a great exchange with Carter here.
As for why we should listen to Carter on this issue:
I don’t claim in this piece to have any specific insight regarding the nature of quantum computing or its impact on cryptography at all. All I am doing is packaging up publicly available data and presenting it in a way that’s intelligible to the average Bitcoin holder. I am an information retailer, not a wholesaler. I am not claiming to be good at physics or cryptography. My skill, to the extent I have one, is applying an investor’s mindset to the narratives and data swirling around and making risk-based assessments. That’s where I perceive a gap in the discourse and that’s the point of this series.
And also Carter does a good job explaining the extent to which we rely on quantum vulnerable cryptography.
The fallout would be immense. All encrypted communications will be presumed exposed. (Including pre-Q-day communications that adversaries were smart enough to harvest and wait to decrypt.) The entire web – TLS, HTTPS, server certificates – will have to be torn out and rebuilt. Every government, corporate network, bank, and hospital will have to retrofit their VPN and SSH infrastructure. Cloud infrastructure will have to be rebuilt. Firmware signing and HSMs will be borked. All encrypted messaging systems will have to upgrade. Oh, and all blockchains. Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, the lot.
Eventually he comes to this:
But as Bitcoiners it’s our duty to be exceptionally paranoid.
Also, I thought this was a pretty nice aside:
In some ways, quantum is the antithesis of AI. Quantum capabilities are already known and indeed provable, we just don’t know if we can scale to actually effectuate them. AI capabilities are unknown and potentially unbounded, and we don’t know where we’re going at all.
102 sats \ 4 replies \ @freetx 1h
Nic is engaging in almost complete hysterical bullshit.
QC is NOWHERE NEAR being able to do anything remotely useful....much less being able to crack encryption.
Of course gov is agreeing to spend money on QC bullshit endeavors, because its just a justification for money printing + handouts (ie. vote buying). There has been no credible demonstrations of QC that shows it even doing something useful at this point.
reply
I stopped reading his thread when I saw he was selectively quoting Scott Aaronson without the very important nuance provided by Scott, i.e., factoring 15 (3x5), not secp256k1.
Luckily, several commenters called him out on his dishonesty.
reply
To be fair Aaronson ended up publishing a correction of sorts because his original statement was pretty misleading.
But your larger point is very valid. Carter seems to be taking a dramatic stance on this topic, for whatever reason.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 1h
factoring 15 (3x5)
I don't remember the exact details of it, but I think the reality is worse...I don't think it actually performed the factorization completely honestly....
Luckily, several commenters called him out on his dishonesty.
Remember Nic is not a tech / developer. He is basically an "investor / influencer" - wouldn't be surprised if these tweets line up with some investments he's made and he's doing a lil pump action....
reply
Maybe when there is a demonstration, it’s gonna be too late. As we all know, people are very bad at understanding exponential growth
reply
Would we expect bitcoin to be the first target?
If not, how much advance warning are we likely to get from seeing other honeypots getting raided?
reply
This is an interesting topic. It's possible some state could have been vacuuming up encrypted communications and would use a QC to crack comma first. I'd they did do such a thing, they certainly wouldn't want to ruin their edge by crashing Bitcoin.
reply
102 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 1h
As always, people tend to binary thinkers.
There are the people who dismiss Q-Day as being physically impossible or too far away to care. Which seems to be the majority in the comments here.
Then there are the people whose last remaining reason to not buy Bitcoin is the imminent quantum threat.
Lots of stubborn ignorance on both sides, the way I see it.
Usually, the truth is somewhere in the middle of the extremes.
reply
The difficulty really comes in nailing down the middle. Because it does matter quite a lot whether we think crqcs are coming in 2030 or 2050.
reply
FUD or reality?
reply
more like a scam
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Catcher 31m
@remindme in 5 years
reply
@remindme in 10 years
reply
institutions are increasingly going into bitcoin
and institutional leadership is being pushed on the idea that they need to prepare their organizations for Q-day, with post-q encryption
we can expect the institutions to push bitcoin
...
its gonna get weirder, anon
reply
More on the topic with interesting insights https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dFknx-mRmKE
reply
reply
I do think quantum is an issue that needs to be monitored and eventually addressed but I also think a lot of the near term hysteria is FUD. I don't understand enough about the scaling capability of QBits but what I do know if powerful quantum computers won't be in the hands of random hackers any time soon. Google or Stanford aren't going to hack bitcoin. The question would be how advanced are foreign actors who might want to hack Bitcoin. Of that I am not really sure. Probably not as far as US based quantum research but maybe far enough that we need to start thinking about it.
reply
OK guys sell al your bitcoin, is worthless
reply
PSA: The quantum apocalypse isn't coming
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fiatbad 1h
This is the part I think people on both sides of this debate are missing.
A QC powerful enough to crack 256-EDCSA will probably take something the size of the moon. Due to the amount of error correction and cooling infrastructure to keep that many qubits at absolute zero (which is required for them to remain entangled).
So, yea, the quantum apocalypse is probably not near.
HOWEVER. This viewpoint ignores the possibility of future breakthroughs. It only took a few breakthroughs to go from computers the size of a garage to computers the size of a wallet. And IF a few small breakthroughs happen in Quantum, the path toward a Billion qubit (logical) QC may be trivial.
reply