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r/bitcoin mods have completely lost their mind
4415 sats \ 50 comments \ @joko 8 Dec 2022 bitcoin
I don't know how this happened, but any post that mentions any other commercial hardware wallet than what they like is getting locked down or tagged as misleading. We (Shift) have been accused of advertising on the subreddit multiple times, just because people have mentioned that they use a BitBox02.
Look at this post, it has 500 upvotes, a stickied completely opinionated and flawed answer from a mod and is locked down.
How is this in any way productive for discourse?
Glad this shit doesn't happen here.
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2561 sats \ 14 replies \ @BITC0IN 8 Dec 2022
you blatantly use shill accounts for your product that have zero karma and only comment about bitbox
you also spread misinformation about airgaps being inferior to your shitcoin usb wallet that discourages users from running their own node and from using third party open source wallet software.
you and your lies are not welcome.
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8136 sats \ 13 replies \ @joko OP 9 Dec 2022
Oh look, there they are. I assume you're MrGnome? Literally everything in your comment is a blatant lie:
"you blatantly use shill accounts for your product that have zero karma and only comment about bitbox"
No we don't. Our product focusses on beginners, so don't be surprised if beginners start talking about it. Weird that you keep alleging these things from every single hardware wallet maker, no matter if it's ledger, trezor or BitBox. Maybe, just maybe, there are actually a ton of people who like using hardware wallets intead of wrapping their old ubuntu laptop in aluminium foil?
"you also spread misinformation about airgaps being inferior"
This is also a lie. We never said airgaps are inferior. We just strongly doubt that airgapping magically solves all your problems, which is something that mods on r/bitcoin claim (see screenshot in my older comment). For everyone curious, here's our blog post: https://shiftcrypto.ch/blog/does-airgap-make-bitcoin-hardware-wallets-more-secure/
"that discourages users from running their own node"
We discourage running your own node? The BitBoxApp is the fucking easiest companion app to use your own node with, because it supports ElectrumRS and a tor connection with it. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgJ_S3GAII
"and from using third party open source wallet software."
Thanks to HWI you can also use the wallet with any third party wallet you like. Sparrow, Electrum, Specter, Wasabi etc. I don't see how we in any way discourage users from running their own node.
Get the fuck out of here
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0 sats \ 12 replies \ @BITC0IN 9 Dec 2022
"Oh look, there they are. I assume you're MrGnome? Literally everything in your comment is a blatant lie:"
nope, that's somebody else.
"No we don't. Our product focusses on beginners, so don't be surprised if beginners start talking about it. Weird that you keep alleging these things from every single hardware wallet maker, no matter if it's ledger, trezor or BitBox. Maybe, just maybe, there are actually a ton of people who like using hardware wallets instead of wrapping their old ubuntu laptop in aluminum foil?"
Exaggerating. No one is suggesting they wrap their laptop in tinfoil. But we are suggesting your solution is inferior, supports shitcoinery and has often mislead users into trusting you when they should not be, without knowing that they are.
"This is also a lie. We never said airgaps are inferior. We just strongly doubt that airgapping magically solves all your problems, which is something that mods on r/bitcoin claim (see screenshot in my older comment). For everyone curious, here's our blog post: https://shiftcrypto.ch/blog/does-airgap-make-bitcoin-hardware-wallets-more-secure/"
That blog post makes a number of hilarious fallacious and inaccurate assumptions, it's amazing you still refer to it. Probably because it's a wall of text. Baffle with bullshit embodied.
"We discourage running your own node? The BitBoxApp is the fucking easiest companion app to use your own node with, because it supports ElectrumRS and a tor connection with it. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrgJ_S3GAII"
Not the default though is it? and to use it with your companion app is laughable as a trustless solution. give me open source wallet software I can build from source. Not some app store app that implies relying on google or apple auditing your bullshit to keep you honest.
"Thanks to HWI you can also use the wallet with any third party wallet you like. Sparrow, Electrum, Specter, Wasabi etc. I don't see how we in any way discourage users from running their own node."
That's not the default though is it. How and where you promote this option matters. consider making it the default.
"Get the fuck out of here"
You first.
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10 sats \ 11 replies \ @joko OP 9 Dec 2022
sigh
your solution is inferior, supports shitcoinery and has often mislead users into trusting you when they should not be, without knowing that they are."
In which way is an open source hardware wallet inferior (to what even lmao)? Where did we ever mislead our users and where did they have to trust us?
Quite the opposite actually for your all time favorite hardware wallet coldcard, which you are keen to shill in almost every one of your posts, and that you absolutely have to trust that it's not leaking your seed: https://medium.com/blockstream/anti-exfil-stopping-key-exfiltration-589f02facc2e
That blog post makes a number of hilarious fallacious and inaccurate assumptions, it's amazing you still refer to it. Probably because it's a wall of text. Baffle with bullshit embodied.
Happy to hear your rebuttal of the claims in that blog post! If you had any, you'd post them.
Not the default though is it? and to use it with your companion app is laughable as a trustless solution. give me open source wallet software I can build from source. Not some app store app that implies relying on google or apple auditing your bullshit to keep you honest.
  1. There needs to be a default option, since you can't expect every bitcoin user to run their own node. If you think they will, you are being delusional.
  2. Everything on the BitBox02 is FOSS. You can build the BitBoxApp from source. Just as you can build the firmware and the bootloader from source. I think you might be mixing up something here.
That's not the default though is it. How and where you promote this option matters. consider making it the default.
Users can setup their BitBox02 with whatever they like. They can use Sparrow, Electrum or whatever to set it up. We're writing blog posts on how to use these tools, but there needs to be a default option that is simple to use for beginners.
Look. You can shit on the BitBox02 all you want, i don't care, but you are barking at the wrong tree. If you think every new bitcoin user will build an airgapped laptop or assemble a seed signer, you are being naive. They will either go with a FOSS bitcoin-only wallet or they are going to buy a closed source ledger that will advertise the next shitcoin scam within their app.
I'm not going to tell you that an airgapped laptop or a seed signer is insecure, because they probably aren't. But they are either hard to use or cost more money than a hardware wallet. None of the thousands of ways to store Bitcoin is perfect, all have trade offs.
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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @BITC0IN 10 Dec 2022
sigh
I'm going to stop trading quote minutia with you for a second and outline my chief concerns first before reengaging quote for quote.
The first is your support for and thereby implied endorsement of shitcoins. No, a Bitcoin only firmware version does no absolve you of this. I see no way back from this ideological and security compromise, unless you do like what coinbase wallet (horrible, I know) has done and start removing support for shitcoins. Ideally all of them.
Second is the companion app you recommend your users to use alongside your hardware by default disempowers them from running their own node. The convenience you are providing them does not help them to become sovereign bitcoiners, but reliant upon your node and software wallet. This is both a security and privacy concern on several levels, and you know it.
Defaults that disempower end users matter. Supporting shitcoins matters.
In which way is an open source hardware wallet inferior (to what even lmao)? Where did we ever mislead our users and where did they have to trust us?
Quite the opposite actually for your all time favorite hardware wallet coldcard,
"coldcard"
You answered your own question, don't play dumb.
which you are keen to shill in almost every one of your posts, and that you absolutely have to trust that it's not leaking your seed: https://medium.com/blockstream/anti-exfil-stopping-key-exfiltration-589f02facc2e
only way to really avoid this concern is a multsig setup from multiple vendors and/or glacier protocol. Blockstream may have identified a concern, but the solution they provide is just another vulnerability that has the added convoluted logic of being self referential in its solution. It does not solve the compromised hardware problem. Seedsigner might even do a better job at this now that I think about it.
Happy to hear your rebuttal of the claims in that blog post! If you had any, you'd post them.
There is a lot to cover in all that, many fallacies are made and information intentionally left out as to cover your own USB products ass. I'm sure someone will put in the work to point out the specifics eventually. there's a lot in there to pull a part. Won't be doing it here and now as it's a tangent. Which, by the way, you love for people to go down. Seems to be the main use of that article by you guys, to distract people from the discussion being had to play on your bullshit court. Not going to do that now, or here.
  1. There needs to be a default option, since you can't expect every bitcoin user to run their own node. If you think they will, you are being delusional.
If you don't run a node, are you even a Bitcoin user? at this point running a node is the baseline iq test to see if you can handle owning Bitcoin. Id you can't or won't, don't buy it. It dead easy running Bitcoin core. It's a one click install, select prune node button if you want to save space. Wait for sync. done. People making it seem like running a node is Everest are doing real harm.
Everything on the BitBox02 is FOSS. You can build the BitBoxApp from source. Just as you can build the firmware and the bootloader from source. I think you might be mixing up something here.
It's on the google play store. Again, defaults matter.
Users can setup their BitBox02 with whatever they like. They can use Sparrow, Electrum or whatever to set it up. We're writing blog posts on how to use these tools, but there needs to be a default option that is simple to use for beginners.
What they can do and what they are conditioned and stream lined into doing by your UX defaults is a world of difference. blog posts that no one reads do not solve this problem. You have created a mouse trap that disempowers end users.
Look. You can shit on the BitBox02 all you want, i don't care, but you are barking at the wrong tree. If you think every new bitcoin user will build an airgapped laptop or assemble a seed signer, you are being naive.
They can always try a coldcard instead. Just as easy to use. But this isn't about new bitcoin users as it is about Bitcoin users and people who want to learn and become real Bitcoin users. Your product does not inspire that action. It robs them of it.
They will either go with a FOSS bitcoin-only wallet or they are going to buy a closed source ledger that will advertise the next shitcoin scam within their app.
Your product supports the exact same shitcoinery as ledger, so don't delude yourself into thinking you're a bitcoin-only wallet. Users should choose Bitcoin only options that are open source, there we can agree. Ideally airgapped, without usb's or wires.
I'm not going to tell you that an airgapped laptop or a seed signer is insecure, because they probably aren't. But they are either hard to use or cost more money than a hardware wallet. None of the thousands of ways to store Bitcoin is perfect, all have trade offs.
there we can also agree. tradeoffs. You seem to be concerned with everyone else's and none of yours. We'll be here to point them out for you.
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27 sats \ 9 replies \ @joko OP 10 Dec 2022
Leaving beside your obvious gaslightning about usb being insecure, anti-exfil not being imporant (for some inexplicable reason), etc, I think I now understand what your problem is:
You are trying to gatekeep Bitcoin.
"Everyone who doesn't use Bitcoin like I do, shouldn't use Bitcoin."
Sorry to break it to you, but no, not everyone will need to run a node. And not everyone will self custody their Bitcoin in the future. What we are trying to do is give as many people as possible the chance to self custody their Bitcoin.
I think you should step out of your bubble for a moment and actually talk with beginners in the space. I've onboarded hundreds of people and I'm telling you: Even opening the commandline is too hard for many. Should these people not be allowed to participate in Bitcoin in a self custodial way?
It's a ridiculous claim that can only come from people who are incredibly self absorbed and isolated in their echochamber.
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0 sats \ 8 replies \ @BITC0IN 10 Dec 2022
Still a shitcoin wallet.
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @joko OP 10 Dec 2022
Does coldcard support taproot adresses yet?
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748 sats \ 3 replies \ @MKZI 9 Dec 2022
This is rather misleading.
What you're seeing as an attack on your company is Bitcoiners providing transparent information about the HW wallet solutions available to us. I have yet to see anything that's been said about any of the commercial offerings that wasn't fact above personal preference and opinion.
This is your customer base. You should be taking criticisms on board. Not trying to change the rhetoric to fit your product.
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6127 sats \ 2 replies \ @joko OP 9 Dec 2022
This is not "providing transparant information". This is censorship and everyone on r/bitcoin except for the mods seem to agree on it. It's also obviously not just about our company - but against almost every single hardware wallet maker.
I don't have a problem with people giving feedback about the security of certain products or generally advising people to use something else. Locking down threads, stickying your obviously flawed opinionated post, then hiding the votes on that stickied post, discrediting users who actually like using a hardware wallet and labeling user posts as "misleading" because "they are bots" is the opposite of providing transparent information.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @MKZI 11 Dec 2022
I can't comment on what the mods are doing (I'm not a mod). But I also have no impressions that Reddit is a democracy. My guess is they're trying to prevent the sea of opinion from drowning out technical conversation.
But if you had evidence of otherwise - if someone, above personal preference/opinions had any legitimate rebuttal to the concerns that your (potential) customers are voicing, id love to hear it?
From what I've read, these are two main areas of contention for your products in particular:
  1. Shitcoin support - I know you have Bitcoin only firmware but the concern is that this misleads newcomers into believing that Shitcoins are on equal standing. Bitcoiners are concerned because as a commercial product supplier you are in a position of influence and are leading them down a path towards pyramid schemes, rug-pulls and scams and ultimately - this affects adoption because those new to the space may not be able to disassociate the two. Above profits - what excusable reason would there be for doing this? Saying "its what the customers desire" isn't really a valid reason - Some people want to take life endangering drugs too - doesn't mean you have to be the dealer.
  2. Claims that USB connectivity gives similar security benefits to an airgapped solution - This is obviously a little more nuanced but clearly using a USB connection adds a potential attack vector. When ranking self custody solutions, we make the obvious statement that, no - it does not.
Look, I understand if you've chosen your path and don't want to build a solution that a more serious Bitcoin owner would want. I mean you're a business and if its not profitable enough due to demand, that's fine. But you must understand that when newcomers enter to the space, it wont be recommended by anyone who sees these as potential attack vectors on the network, when there are solutions that make these considerations.
If you are a Bitcoiner you probably understand why we prefer verifiability over trust. Our ethos pushes us to protect the sovereignty through property rights that Bitcoin enables, above all else. This is why we do not agree with heading down the path that prioritises complacency and convenience, even if this may improve "adoption" - we believe the tradeoff is too great. Sovereignty over your wealth is an all or nothing thing, You either have it, or you don't.
Lastly I just want to point out that I don't think anyone in the space wants a company that supports Bitcoin to fail. We just want you to do better. We want to make sure you don't end up inadvertently becoming adversarial to the Network and to the individuals who use your products by making concessions in security, verifiability or morality for the sake of profits.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @joko OP 11 Dec 2022
I don't have an issue with people critizing us - I actually want people to give us feedback on what we can do better. But this is not what this post is about. We've seen actual censorship happening on r/bitcoin and mods alleging we are scammers every time someone mentions our wallet. Why lock down threads so nobody can discuss anymore? Why label user posts "Misleading" as soon as someone mentions their BitBox02?
To your points:
  1. I get it - partially. I think having a bitcoin-only version and a version that supports all kinds of coins actually does let bitcoin stand out. Because there's no "ethereum only" or "cardano only" version. We are reacting to demand from our customers and when the multi-edition doesn't sell anymore, we're more than happy to not work on it anymore. At least I myself identify as a Bitcoin-Maxi and so do many others in our company.
Tbf what the multi-edition supports is literally just a fraction of the stuff trezor and ledger support, so it's not like we waste time implementing each and every shitcoin on coinmarketcap. It's only the top ~5 coins.
  1. I don't think it's that easy. There's actual security benefits to having a USB connection (like anti-klepto or device attestation). You can't just claim that "a hardware wallet needs to be airgapped". This imho is misleading and will lead people buying airgapped hardware wallets that will end up being insecure.
Regarding concessions about security, verifiability or morality: All our products are FOSS, the BitBox02 is incredibly secure and we as a company are at the top of transparency. We pioneered secure multisig, we've implemented Taproot before other "bitcoin only" wallets, we developed Anti-Klepto (FOSS). I wish other companies would be held to the same standards as us.
Again, all of these things deserve to be discussed. Deleting, banning, mislabeling, stickying opinions does not help anyone but lazy reddit mods that are not interested in a discussion.
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106 sats \ 0 replies \ @arcanox 9 Dec 2022
Tfw people defend a corporation with obvious profit interests instead of grassroots activism.
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139 sats \ 0 replies \ @manbytescamera 8 Dec 2022
I went from Reddit to Twitter and barely ever looked back. Much more signal on Twitter until SN came out. I'm not even sure why bitcoiners use Reddit anymore. This is essentially the Bitcoin subreddit now as far as I'm concerned.
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71 sats \ 2 replies \ @shyfire 8 Dec 2022
There are some good OG Bitcoiners on that sub but overall it's got some crazy moderation vibes. They are zealots about fighting spam and scams. I think that's where it all comes from.
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1 sat \ 1 reply \ @nerd2ninja 9 Dec 2022
They are zealots about fighting spam and scams.
Can you blame them? You see all the spam and scams we gotta put up with as Bitcoiners?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zeyqpv/bitcoin_fundamentals/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Did you see how many people hurt themselves this cycle? Last cycle? Every cycle countless users are led in by scams that pretend to be innovative and revolutionary and related to Bitcoin, and the platforms that make themselves vulnerable supporting them (even indirectly). Scams that are on the same platforms beside bitcoin. That are on the same wallets as bitcoin. That have the same name as Bitcoin. Cryptocurrency. That use the same "revolutionary technology" of blockchain.
This is the bear winter. It's on the back of one of the shitcoin collapses for the ages with mtgox. It's time to clean this culture up a bit and get back to the Bitcoin fundamentals and see if we as a community can lay the ground work for a safe and informed bull spring.
Run a node. Do not use shitcoin wallets and services. Always hold your keys. Don't trust, verify. That's the kind of adoption I'm interested in.
If you want to know how? Take all the time you need and inform yourself at one of many places but do so with a critical mind. Think "who am I trusting and is it really that much work to eliminate that trust?" Bitcoin isn't going anywhere. Price doesn't matter. Half these people are trying to rob you and no one is as interested in securing your money (or platform built on money) as you are. Just take your time.
For others, maybe it's time we curate these resources and the advice we've been giving. It's going to take time and effort and a willingness to do it, but it is doable.
Let's verify more and trust less. Let's disassociate from "crypto" and stablecoins, or whatever that culture has become. Let's try to spread the highest quality methods, knowledge, and businesses. Not necessarily the most accessible and convenient. Not the ones paying us the most in yield or sponsorships.
I'm not under any illusion we're going to save anyone from themselves, and it'll never be close to perfect, but we can all do a lot better for ourselves and the people arriving in the community tomorrow than the low standards and advice regularly given in here. Than the companies we as a Bitcoin community regularly enable.
Wallets
A custom DIY solution, seedsigner.
Another custom DIY solution for high end verification
Why you should run a node.
How to run a node
How to run a pruned node if you cant spare disk space.
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15 sats \ 0 replies \ @shyfire 9 Dec 2022
Not at all. I blame the shitcoiners that run reddit.
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59 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 8 Dec 2022
I discovered SN through r/bitcoin and honestly don't think I have checked in over there more than once or twice since.
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12 sats \ 0 replies \ @02d6987ce2 8 Dec 2022
I also quit r/bitcoin (and reddit) after discovering SN
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @cointastical 8 Dec 2022
I intentionally deleted my Reddit account a couple years ago for a number of reasons, including how old posts would be "archived" after six months and thus no further comment replies could be left for updates, how me including certain words or URLs would cause my post (or my comment reply) to be shadow banned, and other such authoritarian measures -- all that just turned me off.
But I still used to monitor r/Bitcoin (as a guest/not logged in) to keep informed. No longer, ... SN has completely supplanted any remaining use case for r/Bitcoin, IMO.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @virtualshock 8 Dec 2022
Same for me. I just wish SN had a subreddit concept and the other subreddits that I like were on this platform.
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15 sats \ 1 reply \ @selfish_gene 8 Dec 2022
кошелёк? его покупают? аха... интересно у кого купил сатоши свой первый кошелёк?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 9 Dec 2022
Heh. You know actually, we (and I say we as a user because I do not mod that sub) are proposing not buying hardware wallets from anyone. Just using off the shelf stuff. Its just that there are only very few hardware wallets that use an air gap instead of a USB connection.
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42 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryptocoin 8 Dec 2022
Look at this post, it has 500 upvotes, a stickied completely opinionated and flawed answer from a mod and is locked down.
Which post ??
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @joko OP 8 Dec 2022
oh lmao, forgot to link it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zf0b6z/recommending_that_the_only_way_to_use_and_hold/
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136 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 8 Dec 2022
I was banned for a month from r/Bitcoin for saying that I've gotten a lot of value out of Lyn Alden's premium newsletter. I was responding to someone who was specifically asking whether it was worth the subscription or not. I wasn't advertising, I was simply answering a dude's question.
Pissed me off and felt like abuse of power to me.
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @gmd 8 Dec 2022
Most subs / communities tend to devolve like this unfortunately. No pay for moderation, too much spam, and power-tripping. See it on FB groups and everywhere else.
It's a monkey brain problem, I'm not sure what the fix is, honestly. Kind of like how politics attracts sewer rats and the good people run away.
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205 sats \ 0 replies \ @satcat 8 Dec 2022
Yeah r/Bitcoin is pretty hit and miss. Moderators are centralized capture point. Give someone an ounce of power and they easily corrupted.
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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @pillar 8 Dec 2022
I think they started a purge initially thinking of Ledger but have ended up going full Arthas.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRo_xhWiZPcKcVoAU26RFg1eP1gsM51uozJBg&usqp=CAU
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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 9 Dec 2022
https://i.ibb.co/0JvBPrN/rip-and-tear.png
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Atreus 8 Dec 2022
It's Reddit. We don't go there. The people are mentally ill, and they don't even have any sats to make up for it.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 8 Dec 2022
REDDIT IS A TOTAL GARBAGE! Why do you still post there?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @joko OP 8 Dec 2022
I don't post there anymore, but sometimes it's interesting to see what less technical people are currently discussing
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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @iguano 8 Dec 2022
Reddit its a weird place now, I was banned from r/lightningnetwork/ subreddit for posting my youtube videos about the lightning network. I think is more about nerds with power now.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ncryppt 8 Dec 2022
mods be power-tripping hard on reddit
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7 sats \ 0 replies \ @aldion 8 Dec 2022
I was shunned by mods for saying that Celsius is a scam a year before it collapsed, bunch of paid shills spammed me with reports and mods took the bite. Since then I don't respect that platform nor do i use it
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @arcanox 9 Dec 2022
Join the r/Bitcoin discord channel if you want to learn more. We are retaking the sub. No more corporate shills, no more shitcoining.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eximpius 8 Dec 2022
Lol, this is what happens when authoritarian leftist take over a site. Reddit died years ago
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @falsefaucet 8 Dec 2022
is it still modded by cobra?
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21 sats \ 3 replies \ @joko OP 8 Dec 2022
https://i.imgur.com/HxaAyoR.jpg
Just an r/bitcoin mod casually claiming airgapping is a magic silverbullet to each and every attack lol
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @falsefaucet 8 Dec 2022
thank god i found bitcoin twitter when i did, airgapped signing devices are a gateway to shitcoins...am i reading that right?
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376 sats \ 0 replies \ @arcanox 9 Dec 2022
You are reading a response to the claim.
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @nerd2ninja 9 Dec 2022
No, rather the complete opposite. The gray side bar next to the sentence indicates its a quote. Kinda like a green text
thank god i found bitcoin twitter when i did,
Kind of like that format.
What he is saying is that a non-air gapped device with shitcoin support is a gateway to shitcoins. To add to what he's saying, if we were to suggest solutions to people looking for Bitcoin security which markets shitcoins to them, it gets them thinking that Bitcoin and shitcoins have some sort of relation.
It is Bitbox dismissing air gaps. Things could be easier if they added an SD card slot to their hardware I think. Don't know what the point of fighting user demands is.
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