8136 sats \ 13 replies \ @joko OP 9 Dec 2022 \ parent \ on: r/bitcoin mods have completely lost their mind bitcoin
Oh look, there they are. I assume you're MrGnome? Literally everything in your comment is a blatant lie:
"you blatantly use shill accounts for your product that have zero karma and only comment about bitbox"
No we don't. Our product focusses on beginners, so don't be surprised if beginners start talking about it. Weird that you keep alleging these things from every single hardware wallet maker, no matter if it's ledger, trezor or BitBox. Maybe, just maybe, there are actually a ton of people who like using hardware wallets intead of wrapping their old ubuntu laptop in aluminium foil?
"you also spread misinformation about airgaps being inferior"
This is also a lie. We never said airgaps are inferior. We just strongly doubt that airgapping magically solves all your problems, which is something that mods on r/bitcoin claim (see screenshot in my older comment). For everyone curious, here's our blog post: https://shiftcrypto.ch/blog/does-airgap-make-bitcoin-hardware-wallets-more-secure/
"that discourages users from running their own node"
We discourage running your own node? The BitBoxApp is the fucking easiest companion app to use your own node with, because it supports ElectrumRS and a tor connection with it. Proof:
"and from using third party open source wallet software."
Thanks to HWI you can also use the wallet with any third party wallet you like. Sparrow, Electrum, Specter, Wasabi etc. I don't see how we in any way discourage users from running their own node.
Get the fuck out of here
"Oh look, there they are. I assume you're MrGnome? Literally everything in your comment is a blatant lie:"
nope, that's somebody else.
"No we don't. Our product focusses on beginners, so don't be surprised if beginners start talking about it. Weird that you keep alleging these things from every single hardware wallet maker, no matter if it's ledger, trezor or BitBox. Maybe, just maybe, there are actually a ton of people who like using hardware wallets instead of wrapping their old ubuntu laptop in aluminum foil?"
Exaggerating. No one is suggesting they wrap their laptop in tinfoil. But we are suggesting your solution is inferior, supports shitcoinery and has often mislead users into trusting you when they should not be, without knowing that they are.
"This is also a lie. We never said airgaps are inferior. We just strongly doubt that airgapping magically solves all your problems, which is something that mods on r/bitcoin claim (see screenshot in my older comment). For everyone curious, here's our blog post: https://shiftcrypto.ch/blog/does-airgap-make-bitcoin-hardware-wallets-more-secure/"
That blog post makes a number of hilarious fallacious and inaccurate assumptions, it's amazing you still refer to it. Probably because it's a wall of text. Baffle with bullshit embodied.
"We discourage running your own node? The BitBoxApp is the fucking easiest companion app to use your own node with, because it supports ElectrumRS and a tor connection with it. Proof: "
Not the default though is it? and to use it with your companion app is laughable as a trustless solution. give me open source wallet software I can build from source. Not some app store app that implies relying on google or apple auditing your bullshit to keep you honest.
"Thanks to HWI you can also use the wallet with any third party wallet you like. Sparrow, Electrum, Specter, Wasabi etc. I don't see how we in any way discourage users from running their own node."
That's not the default though is it. How and where you promote this option matters. consider making it the default.
"Get the fuck out of here"
You first.
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your solution is inferior, supports shitcoinery and has often mislead users into trusting you when they should not be, without knowing that they are."
In which way is an open source hardware wallet inferior (to what even lmao)? Where did we ever mislead our users and where did they have to trust us?
Quite the opposite actually for your all time favorite hardware wallet coldcard, which you are keen to shill in almost every one of your posts, and that you absolutely have to trust that it's not leaking your seed: https://medium.com/blockstream/anti-exfil-stopping-key-exfiltration-589f02facc2e
That blog post makes a number of hilarious fallacious and inaccurate assumptions, it's amazing you still refer to it. Probably because it's a wall of text. Baffle with bullshit embodied.
Happy to hear your rebuttal of the claims in that blog post! If you had any, you'd post them.
Not the default though is it? and to use it with your companion app is laughable as a trustless solution. give me open source wallet software I can build from source. Not some app store app that implies relying on google or apple auditing your bullshit to keep you honest.
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There needs to be a default option, since you can't expect every bitcoin user to run their own node. If you think they will, you are being delusional.
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Everything on the BitBox02 is FOSS. You can build the BitBoxApp from source. Just as you can build the firmware and the bootloader from source. I think you might be mixing up something here.
That's not the default though is it. How and where you promote this option matters. consider making it the default.
Users can setup their BitBox02 with whatever they like. They can use Sparrow, Electrum or whatever to set it up. We're writing blog posts on how to use these tools, but there needs to be a default option that is simple to use for beginners.
Look. You can shit on the BitBox02 all you want, i don't care, but you are barking at the wrong tree. If you think every new bitcoin user will build an airgapped laptop or assemble a seed signer, you are being naive. They will either go with a FOSS bitcoin-only wallet or they are going to buy a closed source ledger that will advertise the next shitcoin scam within their app.
I'm not going to tell you that an airgapped laptop or a seed signer is insecure, because they probably aren't. But they are either hard to use or cost more money than a hardware wallet. None of the thousands of ways to store Bitcoin is perfect, all have trade offs.
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I'm going to stop trading quote minutia with you for a second and outline my chief concerns first before reengaging quote for quote.
The first is your support for and thereby implied endorsement of shitcoins. No, a Bitcoin only firmware version does no absolve you of this. I see no way back from this ideological and security compromise, unless you do like what coinbase wallet (horrible, I know) has done and start removing support for shitcoins. Ideally all of them.
Second is the companion app you recommend your users to use alongside your hardware by default disempowers them from running their own node. The convenience you are providing them does not help them to become sovereign bitcoiners, but reliant upon your node and software wallet. This is both a security and privacy concern on several levels, and you know it.
Defaults that disempower end users matter. Supporting shitcoins matters.
In which way is an open source hardware wallet inferior (to what even lmao)? Where did we ever mislead our users and where did they have to trust us?
Quite the opposite actually for your all time favorite hardware wallet coldcard,
"coldcard"
You answered your own question, don't play dumb.
which you are keen to shill in almost every one of your posts, and that you absolutely have to trust that it's not leaking your seed: https://medium.com/blockstream/anti-exfil-stopping-key-exfiltration-589f02facc2e
only way to really avoid this concern is a multsig setup from multiple vendors and/or glacier protocol. Blockstream may have identified a concern, but the solution they provide is just another vulnerability that has the added convoluted logic of being self referential in its solution. It does not solve the compromised hardware problem. Seedsigner might even do a better job at this now that I think about it.
Happy to hear your rebuttal of the claims in that blog post! If you had any, you'd post them.
There is a lot to cover in all that, many fallacies are made and information intentionally left out as to cover your own USB products ass. I'm sure someone will put in the work to point out the specifics eventually. there's a lot in there to pull a part. Won't be doing it here and now as it's a tangent. Which, by the way, you love for people to go down. Seems to be the main use of that article by you guys, to distract people from the discussion being had to play on your bullshit court. Not going to do that now, or here.
- There needs to be a default option, since you can't expect every bitcoin user to run their own node. If you think they will, you are being delusional.
If you don't run a node, are you even a Bitcoin user? at this point running a node is the baseline iq test to see if you can handle owning Bitcoin. Id you can't or won't, don't buy it. It dead easy running Bitcoin core. It's a one click install, select prune node button if you want to save space. Wait for sync. done. People making it seem like running a node is Everest are doing real harm.
Everything on the BitBox02 is FOSS. You can build the BitBoxApp from source. Just as you can build the firmware and the bootloader from source. I think you might be mixing up something here.
It's on the google play store. Again, defaults matter.
Users can setup their BitBox02 with whatever they like. They can use Sparrow, Electrum or whatever to set it up. We're writing blog posts on how to use these tools, but there needs to be a default option that is simple to use for beginners.
What they can do and what they are conditioned and stream lined into doing by your UX defaults is a world of difference. blog posts that no one reads do not solve this problem. You have created a mouse trap that disempowers end users.
Look. You can shit on the BitBox02 all you want, i don't care, but you are barking at the wrong tree. If you think every new bitcoin user will build an airgapped laptop or assemble a seed signer, you are being naive.
They can always try a coldcard instead. Just as easy to use. But this isn't about new bitcoin users as it is about Bitcoin users and people who want to learn and become real Bitcoin users. Your product does not inspire that action. It robs them of it.
They will either go with a FOSS bitcoin-only wallet or they are going to buy a closed source ledger that will advertise the next shitcoin scam within their app.
Your product supports the exact same shitcoinery as ledger, so don't delude yourself into thinking you're a bitcoin-only wallet. Users should choose Bitcoin only options that are open source, there we can agree. Ideally airgapped, without usb's or wires.
I'm not going to tell you that an airgapped laptop or a seed signer is insecure, because they probably aren't. But they are either hard to use or cost more money than a hardware wallet. None of the thousands of ways to store Bitcoin is perfect, all have trade offs.
there we can also agree. tradeoffs. You seem to be concerned with everyone else's and none of yours. We'll be here to point them out for you.
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Leaving beside your obvious gaslightning about usb being insecure, anti-exfil not being imporant (for some inexplicable reason), etc, I think I now understand what your problem is:
You are trying to gatekeep Bitcoin.
"Everyone who doesn't use Bitcoin like I do, shouldn't use Bitcoin."
Sorry to break it to you, but no, not everyone will need to run a node. And not everyone will self custody their Bitcoin in the future. What we are trying to do is give as many people as possible the chance to self custody their Bitcoin.
I think you should step out of your bubble for a moment and actually talk with beginners in the space. I've onboarded hundreds of people and I'm telling you: Even opening the commandline is too hard for many. Should these people not be allowed to participate in Bitcoin in a self custodial way?
It's a ridiculous claim that can only come from people who are incredibly self absorbed and isolated in their echochamber.
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Still a shitcoin wallet.
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Does coldcard support taproot adresses yet?
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coldcard has it's own issues too. no one is exempt. Yours just happens to be an obvious offender.
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Issues like selling fake wallets (aka card wallets), not being open source or not honoring bug bounties you mean?
Sure, if you'd just be honest about these. But I don't see you critizing any of those everytime someone brings up coldcard.