Critiques of "Non-Kyc" Bitcoin \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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1235 sats \ 101 comments \ @028559d218 28 Jan bitcoin

I read over and over about Non-Kyc Bitcoin... using Bisq, Robosats, Hodl Hodl etc etc... But we need to be honest with ourselves. These tools are 'privacy enhancing' they are NOT privacy preserving if push comes to shove, and government were to get involved requesting information.

For example a buyer on Robosats takes an order from a seller, also using Robosats and they agree to settle the fiat using Strike. Great. Both the Buyer and Seller have an account on Strike so... the 'fiat' will be transferred via Strike and the Bitcoin sent on-chain or possibly over Lightning to complete to deal.

So what's the issue with this?

Strike knows who BOTH users are, both buyer and seller, and it is a BITCOIN-ONLY exchange. It's not rocket science.

People receiving fiat money from other users, especially in the 500-2000$ range on Strike are OBVIOUSLY NON-KYC TRANSFERS. The Vast Majority. I would guess that 99% of Peer-2-Peer transactions, from one Strike user to another Strike user within the same range, are Non-Kyc buys from one user transferring to another.

Strike can and will provide all of this information, to include amounts, times, dates, and identities to government if they ask. Full stop 100% they have to IF if requesting this information through a warrant or legal means.

Cash App, from what I understand, is exactly the same way. Full-Kyc.

And using a bank through Zelle for example (or the EU equivalent) may be better because it doesn't automatically scream Bitcoin however the names of buyer and seller will probably be shown to both. And at least if the amounts are small (500-2000$) and it's infrequent then it shouldn't matter...

But random, frequent bank transactions from 3rd parties through such a medium could raise suspicion? And with "larger amounts" (whatever that is to you) even more so?

The point I'm trying to make is that by this logic, Non-KYC buys using KYC platforms isn't really Non-KYC. It's "Non-Kyc-Like" but NOT really anonymous if it were to involve a meaningful government investigation or request for information.

Bitcoiners shouldn't delude themselves about this. Strike has every record (why wouldn't they?) of every transaction between users even if they don't know what it's "for".

Actual Non-Kyc transactions would involve things like... gift cards that are purchased with Cash or actual "Cash transactions", completely offline, where no identities are provided in busy public places using other tradecraft or privacy-preserving techniques.

Part of Bitcoin's integrity depends on discussing what is, and isn't anonymous and what does, and does not work. We need to be honest with ourselves and the "Strike" "CashApp" transactions although they are 'privacy-like...' are not meaningfully private in my opinion. We can and should do better.

Thanks

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95 sats \ 64 replies \ @0xIlmari 28 Jan

Stop using Strike, Zelle, Cash App etc. Problem solved.

Bitcoin has no built-in KYC. You're getting KYC'd because you use garbage fiat services.

404 sats \ 10 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

The RoboSats order Book is almost all Kyc services you mentioned. There are some 'amazon gift cards' options but it's rare.

10 sats \ 9 replies \ @0xIlmari 28 Jan

Use cash in person or via mail. Or sell fucking gold bars for Bitcoin.

41 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan 20h

Who's fooling enough to buy gold bars with bitcoin??

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xIlmari 19h

Someone who's holding both for diversification. After a bull run the Bitcoin part of their portfolio might be a tad bit swollen and they might want to rebalance.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 19h

Good question. I do know that Apmex has had good runs in the past in crazy bulk markets like 2017 when people wanted to "take profits" in their bitcoin.

Also, pawn shop gold dealers would. Most of their customers know jack shit about bitcoin. They want gold.

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 28 Jan

That's not a bad idea. I think the Apmex web site accepts bitcoin, but of course that doesn't solve much if you're giving them a shipping address. There are still local pawn shops all over the US that deal almost 90% in cash. I knew a guy who knew a guy 😀 who used to buy all his gold like that, pre- bitcoin. I haven't tried this, but from their typical political bent I wouldn't be shocked to find out they are trading gold for bitcoin as well as cash.

41 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xIlmari 29 Jan

Sure, a gold seller/mint might have your address but that's just an OpSec matter - someone knows you're loaded. Same thing applies to any big purchase.

But gold is anonymous and fungible. You then take the bar/coin somewhere else and break the link.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 20h

Oh yeah. I agree. I'm just saying an even better method is going into one of those pawn shops selling gold, who prefer cash transactions. They don't ask for your name or anything. Like anything else, it's best to get to know the owner, so you get a decent deal. This is near perfect.

41 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

never heard of/seen pawn shops for bitcoin but it's interesting

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 29 Jan

I never have either. It makes sense, though. Guys keep safes filled with gold, keep cash dollars around to pay for items. They have the whole security issue worked out.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 14h

If I see pawn shops advertising that they accept guns gold and Bitcoin (to buy or sell) then I'll know that we have really made it.

0 sats \ 52 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

THIS

148 sats \ 51 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

Even if you don't "use" Strike to purchase Bitcoin, how are people supposed to acquire Bitcoin without involving KYC?

Here's a scenario, a "wealthy" person wants to buy 10000 Euro's worth of Bitcoin. Where do they do that without signing up for a KYC service?

Strike Zelle and Cash App are all KYC.

Other than sending cash in the mail or finding a Bitcoin ATM....? Or a P2P cash transaction?

19 sats \ 1 reply \ @petertodd 28 Jan

Or a P2P cash transaction?

Obviously. 10,000 EUR isn't much cash to invest over time if you use cash regularly; if you don't use cash regularly, WTF are you doing?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

Not so much over time, but all at once or over say a few days.

Before that person can do that... they have all these other tools they need to learn (robosats, what TOR is etc)

And then they're meeting a stranger (assuming they find the posting on Robosats in their area for cash) to exchange thousands in cash.

To go from owning 'no Bitcoin' to doing this is... kinda a big jump imo.

And assuming it's a 'wealthy person' who's doing this weekly or monthly it's going to take quite a bit of time as well, and they want to do it safely too.

For one off buys or occasional buys it's not a big deal... but regularly I'm not sure it's the answer. I wish we could do more

https://xcancel.com/L0laL33tz/status/1880146940903473290#m

31 sats \ 22 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

Why people always want "to buy BTC" instead of earn BTC?

38 sats \ 13 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

We're talking in circles here. My employer doesn't pay in Bitcoin, they honestly know nothing about it.

I mention it from time to time with coworkers or friends and they either think it's a scam (like a memecoin?) or a few them poke fun at me when I mention it (I'm like the funny Bitcoin-person LOL).

I don't know a single other person IRL who has heard of Lightning

30 sats \ 12 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

My employer doesn't pay in Bitcoin

make them pay in bitcoin ( see example here: #692855)
start using a service that pays YOU in BTC (did you read the links I just posted?) and gradually work on making them to pay you in BTC. https://darth-coin.github.io/beginner/be-paid-in-bitcoin-using-bitwage-en.html

19 sats \ 11 replies \ @j7hB75 29 Jan

Strike offers the option to direct deposit your paycheck into your account and convert all or some of your paycheck into Bitcoin. Bitwage does this and probably more. However, both services require personal information. You seem pro Bitwage. Are you opposed to Strike in this sense?

10 sats \ 10 replies \ @DarthCoin 29 Jan

No. I am pro any option to get your wage directly in btc and don't do any shity dca. DCA is for pussies. Anyways, bitwage, strike and other wage services are only a transition to a full direct payment in btc. For example I used bitwage from 2015 until 2018 meanwhile I did an intensive work of convincing my clients to pay me in btc. Then from 2018 I start being paid in btc directly so I didn't need bitwage anymore. Only sporadically with temporary clients that haven't btc.

The difference between strike and biteage is that with bitwage you do not need any bank account in your name.

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121 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xIlmari 28 Jan

To be fair, something like Bitwage doesn't really "solve" the "KYC problem", just shifts it to a different company.

Bitcoin circular economy is the only way to insulate oneself from fiat and all the garbage like KYC/AML.

And let's be real, you have to be both lucky and an incredible leader to create such an economy around you. It's not for everyone, it's going to be a slow process, and there will be people stuck in fiat mines for many years to come.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

Using Bitwage is not using a bank account in your name. You are totally bankless. That is a huge advantage. Yes is not ideal, but is a start.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @denlillaapan 20h

I hate to echo Taleb here, but How do those counterparts get bitcoin?

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 20h

From others that already have. I am paying the local fruits and veggies producer with sats because I already have sats. I am paying the landlord in sats, because I already have them / earn them. If people just hoard sats and never use them as money WE WILL NEVER GET THE FUCK OUT FROM FIAT DEBT SLAVERY. But also never go back to fiat by selling your sats for more fiat. Just pay as much as you can directly in sats.

See more here: #576140

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @denlillaapan 20h

True true... And how do they get some?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 20h

From others that already earn sats.

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44 sats \ 25 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 28 Jan

You can buy bitcoin at ATMs in Vienna without KYC

10 sats \ 7 replies \ @denlillaapan 20h

Horrible pricing/spread?

29 sats \ 6 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 14h

About 7% when I was there

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @denlillaapan 14h

7 is awesome for an ATM I suppose. Have heard/seen horror stories of 15-20%.

Also, Peach usually trades at what, 7-12% above market so I mean you're in the same ballpark then

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Jon_Hodl 14h

Yeah. The fees were incredibly reasonable.

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 14h

Is it worth it?

139 sats \ 1 reply \ @Jon_Hodl 14h

It is to me.

IMHO, that is the REAL price of bitcoin while everything sold from centralized exchanges is the discounted price for surrendering your identity to the KYC social credit surveillance system.

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10 sats \ 13 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19h

What are the fees like? If they're lower than my capital gains tax rate, I may go there when I need to sell my sats for fiat to buy something I can't buy with sats.

0 sats \ 12 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 14h

They were like 7% when I was there.

Limits were like €500 per person per day or something but there are multiple machines across the city

0 sats \ 11 replies \ @028559d218 OP 14h

If it's Non-Kyc... how do the machines identify individual persons? Does it require a phone number? Does it have to be an Austrian number or just EU?

If a phone number is the only thing required... why not just use the same machine repeatedly or several times (with different numbers of course)?

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 14h

Not sure how it verifies since I never verified anything. It didn't require a phone number or anything for small orders under like 500 Euros or something. I can't quite remember but it was all very easy with just a few taps on the screen.

I never exceeded the non-KYC limit but I imagine that it uses an EU phone number that is verified and attached to your identity.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 14h

you can earn BTC without KYC and any % rate if you beat the hell out your payer...

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

that's interesting

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 29 Jan

Yup.

Euros in. Sats out.

Absolutely 0 KYC

30 sats \ 11 replies \ @Fundamentals 28 Jan

Never having to exchange back to fiat is the goal - a very difficult goal that most people need to be building 24/7/365.

If you don't have people to exchange bitcoin with, then you will default to the exchange. You must build a circular economy to have any hope of using your Bitcoin as proper money.

72 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

Bitcoin Circular Economy - a hard to achieve goal for many people

130 sats \ 3 replies \ @Fundamentals 28 Jan

I have farmers accepting Bitcoin, and my childrens school does as well. That's a decent portion of my necessities. It also makes these ppl and institutions strong and durable. This work never stops.

Also, don't underestimate the value of friends if all else fails. Friends will take a fiat bullet for you - meaning they can intermediate between you and a company where they pay the fiat and you can send them Bitcoin.

This makes your friends strong and durable.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

That's a decent portion of my necessities

booom! you see? once somebody cover at least 50% of their spending necessities with sats, their life is totally changed.

And friends indeed, are a good resource for paying your old fiat bills. You help them (getting sats) and they help you paying those fucking bills.

The important step to do is TO EARN IN SATS. After that is quite easy nowadays.

https://darth-coin.github.io/beginner/pay-with-bitcoin-en.html

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

You must be in the EU. Outside of the 'Bitcoin Bubble' and maybe ETFs now... nobody really knows anything about how Bitcoin works much less Lightning really.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

It really doesn't matter where you live. Is more about to BUILD that circular economy around you. If you just sit, vote and cry for a gov to pay you in BTC, you can wait forever. BE THE CHANGE IF YOU WANT THE WORLD TO CHANGE.

21 sats \ 5 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

The only place I've seen that offers anything like a "Bitcoin economy" is Lugano, Switzerland. If you are European you have NO EXCUSE but to visit sometime you really can pay for a mini-vacation there in Bitcoin.

Outside of that it's... the occasional gift card and maybe buying VPNs but you can't eat VPNs LOL.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Myshkin 28 Jan

Lol you can work 11 months and half, then spend all the hard earned sats to pay for some cappuccino coffee or a pizza at a crazy-swiss-price. And pay sats to merchants that don't really want them because they prefer the stable shitcoin they use over there. I mean, what could go wrong?

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

There are plenty people with plenty disposable income... for whom a few hundred euros, or even a thousand euros is a small amount of money to spend on a short vacation.

If Bitcoiners don't 'spend their Bitcoin' ever on anything and never use it, then don't we end up with the current situation? Where there is practically zero merchant adoption outside of VPNs and a few small Bitcoin companies?

And if Bitcoin will never be adopted because the merchants 'just convert it to Bitcoin anyway' then sell all your Bitcoin because we will never get anywhere.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19h

If Bitcoiners don't 'spend their Bitcoin' ever on anything and never use it, then don't we end up with the current situation?

Individuals follow individual incentives, not collective ones. I think the most economically incentivized use case for spending sats directly as it stands is that it shields you from extortion.

And if Bitcoin will never be adopted because the merchants 'just convert it to Bitcoin anyway' then sell all your Bitcoin because we will never get anywhere.

I don't want to sell my bitcoin, it preserves purchasing power. I'll sell it when I want to buy something and don't have enough fiat.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @shadowybadger 22h

Yeah and 1sat/vB blocks that ultimately are not censorship resistant.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @krispy_donkey 21h

What do you mean by not censorship resistant

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

I think I already explained in simple terms here #867959 my position about KYC.

The thing is that the "privacy advocates" are trying to sell your the non-KYC places as the ultimate thing against a government agency that is watching all your moves. That's not totally true. The gov is not interested into how many beers you bought with sats, but from where they can squeeze you to pay more taxes.

The REAL threat is not coming from the gov, when is about your BTC... but from real bad actors, that are not part of the gov... and can be right next to you, the guy that sells you pot and next day can kidnap you because they know your BTC stash.

And please, don't say anymore "KYC or non-KYC bitcoin". There's no such thing. It's only Bitcoin.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

Thanks. My position on this... is that a long-term holder needs a blended 'defense in depth' against scams, fraud, or even violent crime against them.

Not talking about Bitcoin... or at least not 'their' Bitcoin. Not to mention, not having substantial amounts of Bitcoin at easy access or in a place where they could be "compelled" to access it.

Some people advocate for multisig for just this reason (I know you don't?) because that way it's not "all at one place" and keys have to accessed in multiple secure locations to spend funds.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 28 Jan

blended 'defense in depth'

You will not achieve that with more complexity but with simplicity.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

Interesting

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 19h

I came to this conclusion long ago. I used to do bisq and use a money order and it was awful.

KYC sucks but the race is to get as much BTC as you can. Playing this no-KYC game means you end up with less with someone who can market buy on a KYC exchange and withdraw. Plus if you never sell for cash and use lightning you can protect yourself somewhat.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @shadowybadger 22h

Good post & correct - those are not proper KYC free methods.

Cash will become increasingly important. Mark my words.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19h

Where I live, grocery stores look more or less like this:

20 self-checkouts, which are card only, and hardly anyone using them (maybe 2-3 of them in active use at any given time)
3 manned checkouts, 2 of them closed, and a long line of customers at the one that's open waiting their turn, because they want to pay with cash

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @af1f6f3e17 29 Jan

When you touh fiat, you touch shit

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 29 Jan

Another option is when selling assets like cars etc offer fiat cash price and a Bitcoin payment option.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic 29 Jan

And using a bank through Zelle for example (or the EU equivalent) may be better because it doesn't automatically scream Bitcoin however the names of buyer and seller will probably be shown to both. And at least if the amounts are small (500-2000$) and it's infrequent then it shouldn't matter...

Zelle is dogshit. For domestic settling of small things like a dinner.

I use Wise for (500-2000$) and they're none the wiser. How do I know? Because if they knew it was for bitcoin they would close the account. Plus you can have an LLC and Wise business account. Now those semi-frequent transactions are even less suspect and your counterparty DOES NOT LEARN YOUR NAME. The name is the LLC and the email can be whatever.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic 29 Jan

Also, look into Wise... I swapped my traditional bank for Wise as it's way less shit and let's me accept EUR or GBP for my bitcoins (I mine). AND, has the benefit of not being a bitcoin company so I can keep these things separate.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic 29 Jan

Problem is you said Strike.

Why on earth is Strike or Cashapp in your BITCOIN stack if you care about non-KYC.

Go to Bisq. Try again. Stop using Strike.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @catdaddysoprano 29 Jan

There has never been a point in my bitcoin journey where my setup, my privacy, my environment, or my execution has felt flawless. I'm just always trying to do a little bit better - and ensuring security has taken more precedent so far than absolute pristine KYC practices.

I'm trying, but I hang my head a little on this one.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 28 Jan

All true no doubt but does the government have time to make all those inquiries in practice? Another option is to find someone you know or someone who knows someone you know and buy Bitcoin directly from them. Pay via bank or cash up to you. If you explore the netowrk of people you know in the 'real world' there is a very good chance someone within one or two degrees of contact has Bitcoin and it may well be KYC free and that they want to sell for cash.

14 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

I'm still looking!

As far as the government, in practice no not for the vast majority of cases. However kyc-lite vs kyc-free is a real distinction.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 28 Jan

I put out the feelers and found a surprising abundance of Bitcoin holders within my not large social network in the real world. Because they are socially connected there is reduced risk of rip off. Not to overtly seek to buy but rather seeking out people with your shared interest in Bitcoin and then once found, seek out whether they might wish to sell some. Surprising how many people have a stack just quietly and often obtained prior to ubiquitous KYC surveillance. If they acquired free of KYC there are good reasons for wishing to sell in the same manner. Privacy is always a question of degree but offline sometimes easier to preserve.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Jon_Hodl 28 Jan

It’s not the bitcoin that’s KYC.

It’s YOU that is KYC’d.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

It's both, otherwise coinjoined Bitcoin wouldn't be not accepted by some exchanges.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 28 Jan

I agree with your points, but there aren't a ton of good options. I have been posting about this:

Actual Non-Kyc transactions would involve things like... gift cards that are purchased with Cash or actual "Cash transactions", completely offline, where no identities are provided in busy public places using other tradecraft or privacy-preserving techniques.

Amazon seems to be the most desirable card, at least on robosats. There is a distinction, though, between physical gift cards you buy with cash (the method that makes the most sense) and the e-cards, which again introduces at least privacy issues. The physical card bought with cash in the store isn't foolproof either:

not the paper vouchers that contain a visible code, and that you can buy at shops for cash. We understand the latter are more private because there is no name attached to the payment, but they also come with risks, namely:

no payment proof: the seller can claim the code was already spent on receipt, and neither the buyer nor the mediator have any means to ascertain either way illicit origin: code vouchers could be obtained through scams, and the recipient account could get the balance erased as a result, and his Amazon account banned For these reasons, Bisq only allows for eGift cards.

For these reasons Bisq only permits e-cards. Robosats allows you to use either, or whatever the hell else you feel like using.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

Thank you for your response.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that as Bitcoin grows and matures we need to honestly assess it's usability under adverse scenarios... by a whole bunch of different users.

If 'gift cards' for Amazon is like the best/most private thing going on with Robosats... then we need to innovate.

My understanding is that they're region-locked to begin with, possibly to certain countries (like Germany instead of the entire EU) and let's be honest... it's not as good as having actual cash.

There may be other... markets where such gift cards could be exchanged but then it takes even more education to access them and use them.

In serious 'adversial' environments, for example for journalists in the Middle East or Eastern Europe (or even in the United States in some cases) Bitcoin is too hard to use privately unless people really want to study it.

The journalist or pro-democracy advocate doesn't want to have to become a Bitcoin 'expert' just to use private non-state money - they want to be the journalists or advocate or writer or whatever and have technology that's easy to use... that they can then turn into real goods and services so they can go about their advocacy privately.

Signal did this with the cell phone. VPNs have helped. Encrypted email has helped. We need to 'killer app' for Bitcoin that doesn't require running a full node too.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Colonial 28 Jan

This is as nonsensical as Chainalysis' "heuristics". You "would guess" that certain Strike transactions are Non-KYC btc purchases. You can guess all you like, but you'd often be wrong. The best way to defeat this heuristic would be to use Strike to send money between friends for all sorts of things. Start telling people about Strike as a better Venmo, Zelle, CashApp, etc. Just as someone once told you about those other apps.

Otherwise, stick to cash only, p2p deals on the street. This, however is not always an option for everyone.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 28 Jan

I've seen very few cash deals posted on Robosats.

Privacy depends not only on the 'tool' itself... but the anonymity set too ie how many other people are using it.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 22h

Go to local bitcoin meetup for cash p2p, don't use RoboSats for that.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0382ea9355 21h freebie

Bisq is as close as you can get to non-kyc bitcoin trading. It is up to the user to decide on what method of trade they want to engage in. Payment with gift cards, cash via mail and even face to face are all supported trading methods on bisq.