IMF and El Salvador \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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1726 sats \ 60 comments \ @DarthCoin 22 Dec bitcoin

IMF and El Salvador

During all these years of self-education and search for the truth, which by the way led me to Bitcoin, one of the things I learned is that the IMF is the monetary instrument used by the US to subjugate countries and take away their national sovereignty.

The most significant case of our time was Japan, many do not know the history, and as it is somewhat long and complex I refer you to the great documentary “Princes of the Yen”.

If there is one thing that “Bitcoiners” are guilty of, it is naivety. Bukele has made a pact with the devil, Bukele is not as good as you think, he is just a politician, if he had really been smart and had thought about his people, rather than asking for a loan to the IMF he would have opted for the old tactic of save and do not spend what you do not have.

Oh yes, now he has bought 10 more bitcoins, as if he spends the 1400 million in Bitcoin, so far the IMF has already had its way with Bitcoin.

I repeat, if there is one thing Bitcoiners are guilty of, it is being very naive. There is no good politician, you understand? Neither Trump, nor Milei nor Bukele, they are all shit, and Bukele only uses Bitcoin as propaganda, nothing else.

You can argue whatever you want, but surely you don't know what it means to pact with the IMF nor how bad this institution is, before giving your opinion about how good Bukele is, study what the IMF is, study how it has subjugated countries and study what happens if you breach your agreements with the IMF.

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71 sats \ 1 reply \ @Shugard 22 Dec

I repeat, if there is one thing Bitcoiners are guilty of, it is being very naive. There is no good politician, you understand? Neither Trump, nor Milei nor Bukele, they are all shit, and Bukele only uses Bitcoin as propaganda, nothing else.

YES!

Bukele may be better than the alternative, but he is certainly not one of the good guys as most bitcoiners believe. His mass incarcerations are also very questionable. And his re-election story is also very shady. Power corrupts and he is basically a modern day dictator in El Salvador. Just because you (the average bitcoiner) like him doesn't mean it justifies the concentration of power in one man. Never give up your freedom and give it to a guy who wants power. And he definitely wants power!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 23 Dec

I give him putting Maras in prison

157 sats \ 14 replies \ @Lux 22 Dec

you spelled zionists incorrectly

0 sats \ 13 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 22 Dec

Got a problem with Zionists?

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 23 Dec

Yes

20 sats \ 10 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 22 Dec

Do you deny that they own and control the US government via the fiat debt slavery banking system?

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 11h

Of course they control the US Government. They're a really talented bunch of little devils. What I find really impressive is that with all the stuff controlled by the Jews (I know you said Zionists but if you knew what the word meant you'd understand that it encompasses the vast majority of Jews) you're somehow still here. I mean, they control everything, the banks, the media, the lasers, even the beepers apparently... How is it that you manage to evade them?

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @Lux 11h

Don't make it a semitic issue. It's the trap.

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 11h

Most Zionists are Jews and most Jews are Zionists. After WWII it became less fashionable to say that Jews controlled everything so "Jews" was replaced with "Zionists", but the accusations are fundamentally the same so I'm gonna assume that it's a thin veil for antisemitism. You're welcome to prove me wrong of course but it's gonna take more than a photo of a few Jews that oppose the state of Israel. That community is really small.

I will say it's refreshing to be on a platform where you can say what's on your mind without censorship. I love free speech even if I think what you have to say is vile :-)

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Lux 11h

It's good to be a skeptic.

The jewish people, like many other tribes, suffered too much

link 1

link 2

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Lux 11h

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

See also Ezekiel 38 and 39

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 11h

Do you deny that Zionists largely own and control the Federal Reserve?

BTW I have no personal antipathy toward Jews as a race and people and reject anti-semitism along with all forms of racism, however it is important to acknowledge that a small number of Jews do control the majority of the global fiat monetary system...in part due to the historical exemption across Christendom that allowed for Jews to provide money lending/usury/banking...or do you disagree???

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @mudbloodvonfrei 10h

Maybe I can offer you a different perspective. Jews have a culture built around things that are highly correlated with professional success (family, community ties, academic achievement, critical thinking, etc.) As a result Jews are over-represented in all fields - medicine, law, literature, media, science, engineering, and yes, banking. There is no conspiracy, they just get up earlier, work harder, sacrifice today so that their children will be better off tomorrow, build community structures that lift everyone up, etc. Most people that don't like them are just jealous. I prefer to learn from them instead of being a whiny little bitch.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 22 Dec

What do you mean?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @thecommoner 22 Dec

I am no longer shocked when a "Bitcoiner" becomes "successful" and ends up crashing and burning....

I wish they didn't get so caught in their own ego and could stay on the path of providing value permanently -

When I look into the future I am trying to build on Bitcoin - I guess I see a different goal than simply accumulating all the Bitcoin I can....and I see it more as a record of value exchanged and less as an "asset or commodity" to hoard or HODL...

I don't think I am crazy here - but I would rather be known for having provided more value to more people than for having "acquired" more value than others -

I don't think most people see it this way yet? I think many politicians and many getting into Bitcoin look at it as something else still.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Akg10s3 22 Dec

Well... the International Monetary Fund is a bad idea from Bukele, that's true!

But what that man did with the criminal gangs and murderers who were taking over that country was incredible!! That man will go down in the history books of El Salvador as the person who freed them again!!

As for security, he changed the course of that country forever!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 22 Dec

Agree he took on the criminal gangs and imo the IMF is also a criminal gang but do not judge Bukele too swiftly as the IMF are a very sophisticated gang with powerful armies and well resourced spooks and lawyer behind them. We do not know the status of El Salvadors pre existing debt slavery to the IMF. We do not know how deeply the tentacles of the IMFs debt contracts reach into the sovereignty of El Salvador- but we can estimate that based on the performance of the IMF they were already, prior to Bukele well and truly positioned to have considerable debt leverage over El Salvador and that to deal with this gang, the IMF, will require some extended and very clever strategy from Bukele.

22 sats \ 2 replies \ @Aardvark 22 Dec

I recently got into an argument with someone over Milei. I was told that Milei was an anarcho capitalist....

The head of the state.... an anarchist.... Come the fuck on.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @guts 23 Dec

Anarco capitalism subreddit loves him

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Aardvark 23 Dec

Larpers living in their mom's basement

28 sats \ 2 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 22 Dec

Didn’t you read Perkins’ ”Confessions of an Economic Hitman”? The IMF is nothing more or nothing less than an economic terrorist organization. They are pushing the debt as a kind of drug and then pulling the rug out from under the addict. They get to foreclose on the collateral of the poor addict country. Bukele took the “One time won’t hurt” hook.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 23 Dec

Prior to Bukele coming to power the IMF already had its claws deep into the El Salvador government in terms of existing debt obligations.

WTF is Bukele spose to do wave a magic wand and remove the pre-existing debt?

The proposed idea of BTC bonds seems to have not yet borne fruit so he is forced to agree to some form of extending the existing debt funding.

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 23 Dec

They are doing the same thing the Mafia does in the US. They make the loan and when the borrower cannot pay the vigorish, trouble starts and property is taken. I understand that he inherited a lot of debt from the previous government, perhaps he can find a way out. We need to do the same, here in the good ol’ USA.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fiatrevelation 22 Dec

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @oraltosun 23 Dec

Indeed, nothing is as it seems from the outside. We see it the way we want it to be. The capacity to see the truth is something that is acquired over time. Of course, if the person wants to... Omar Khayyam invokes God in one of his poems; "I prayed for you to see the truth. But now, I can't bear to see the truth anymore. "

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 22 Dec

What we do not know is the status of the El Salvador governments existing debt with the IMF. My understanding is that the IMF uses debt slavery to capture and control the sovereign governments of the world in order to force policies which suit the USA and its allies. This involves offering a country funding (debt) with all the regular strings attached- the country becomes mired in debt and thus the IMF can impose whatever it wants- Do we know the extent of El Salvadors debt to the IMF prior to Bukele coming to power? Do we know the conditions of that debt? My position is without knowing the extent of debt leverage/control that the IMF already held over El Salvador we cannot fairly judge Bukele- he may have been forced to make some sort of deal. I also reject the suggestion that all politicians are shit- they are only shit to the extent that they become owned by various lobbyists and thereby betray the promises they make to voter- ultimately imo voters are in part responsible for the quality of politicians we get and the Libertarian cynicism and outright dismissal of all politicians as shit is a fatalistic and overly simplistic take on reality and only ultimately invites the worse politicians to gain power. What we need is to be active in politics and to all be the government...because there is no way around the fact that government is a crucial factor in determining the well being and wealth of nations.

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @joda 22 Dec

Years ago I thought El Salvador would be a Bitcoin utopia by now; it's clearly not-- if anything Bitcoin may have less acceptance and interest than two years ago.

Bhutan and US States creating Bitcoin reserves is much more interesting to me now. Apparently the world really does need to go through Store of Value phase before Medium of Exchange.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 22 Dec

Bitcoin used as SoV without any substantial use as MoE makes Bitcoin easy to capture and control- it also creates the perfect conditions for an Order 6102฿.

And Bitcoin being defined as and used as a speculative commodity SoV is precisely what is happening due to the tax rules obstruction of use as a MoE.

Many Bitcoiners including you seem unaware of the capture and control of Bitcoin that is underway and increasingly advanced...blinded by price gain greed?

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @joda 23 Dec

Are you perhaps into Monero or, by your tone I would guess BCH?

6102 may be a real threat; it's really hard to say. I'm not worried so much about direct confiscation, as it would be entirely the obligation of the government to prove that you own (and control) any. It could however be made much more illegal to accept it or transact generally.

The common argument, among others, is that this would put the United States at a disadvantage as other countries would shift to using it and de-dollarize.

I don't think you'll find a lot of NGU peeps here. The range is pretty much libertarian to anarchist, or at least those are the outspoken ones. I think most people here want to own Bitcoin, own assets, or spend Bitcoin to get assets.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 23 Dec

Not a holder of Monero or BCH.

I searched NGU on duckduckgo and all that came up was some urinary tract infection- otherwise not sure what you mean by that term.

Yes Libertarians are loud on here. Not sure what the connection is but few on here seem to understand that without Bitcoin being used much as a p2p payments protocol it is at real risk of becoming a speculative commodity plaything and easily controlled by the legacy fiat debt slavery cartel operators- in fact this is exactly what is happening.

So much for the revolution as soon as greed stepped in...

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @joda 23 Dec

"Number Go Up" (just in it for the fiat).

There is a theory that money must first be a store of value before it can be a medium of exchange. If so, and it is permissionless and decentralized, it stands to reason that more people will accumulate it. However, its value is dependent on it not being co-opted. If it loses decentralization and becomes permissioned, it is essentially worthless. So there is a catch-22 for a sovereign nation who wants to unilaterally control it: they have to pay an exorbitant amount to do so, and then it becomes worthless.

Furthermore, simply owning the money doesn't give one any special rights or privileges to the code (it does allow price manipulation, however). So I'm curious what capture and control mechanisms are you referring to?

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 23 Dec

You are wrong on all three main points that you have asserted.

1- theory that money must be a SoV before it can be a MoE- there is no such theory- not a credible one based on sound reason and historical evidence at least - it is a muddled and confused understanding of the fact that good money must be both a SoV and MoE...and one that suits the speculative commodity narrative that is fundamentally undermining Bitcoins primary stated purpose of being a P2P payments protocol. 2- You seem to believe that an attack on the mining front is the only way to undermine the protocol- this is simply untrue. While if a nation state (or any other entity) wanted to apply a 51% attack your understanding is correct, this is not the only way the protocol can be attacked. There are other ways. Here is just one.

Another would be an Order 6102฿ ban on private custody. Another would be a combination of tax rules and KYC combined with arbitrarily defining Bitcoin as a commodity while allowing its use as a speculative commodity ( and thus via ETFs and other routes enabling growing institutional custody (Coinbase now holds over 2.2 million Bitcoins)) - this is in fact exactly what has happened already and not only undermines the protocol as a P2P payments protocol but also prepares perfectly for an order 6102฿ ban on private custody in several ways which you can deduce for yourself. 3- See the link above where Andreas Antopolous explains how custody including declared right to determine which fork to accept definitively does provide considerable scope for manipulation and alteration of the protocol.

I'm curious as to how you have remained so ignorant of all these factors and/or whether you can refute any of them, or whether as I would assert, almost the entire community has been blinded by the price goes up speculative commodity narrative greed that is central to enabling the capture and control of Bitcoin by bankers and governments.

Perhaps anything that does not support the speculative commodity narrative is simply ignored.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @joda 16h

The Store of Value issue is interesting. You didn't bring it up, but I think the reason no crypto is widely used for transactions is simply that it's easier and more beneficial to the consumer to use a credit card. Zero risk, liability, or interest, works instantly with a tap of a card with no phone/computer needed. Most people, by far, care more about convenience than privacy or sovereignty.

Bitcoin may be "stuck" as a store of value--maybe-- but it is excellent at that, and that is what is most needed today, in most places. Why not spend fiat and save in Bitcoin?

One argument that I've been compelled by, is that Bitcoin is not obligatory for everyone, but it is available to everyone. Not everyone needs to run a node, but anyone can run a node. Likewise if you are using fiat primarily, but save in Bitcoin, you can transact in Bitcoin if you need to, not that you would necessarily choose to for every transaction.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 14h

Bitcoin cannot be used as a P2P payments protocol without both buyer and seller breaching CG tax laws unless they perform record keeping and reporting that very few people could be reasonably expected to comply with- thus tax authorities arbitrary classification of Bitcoin as a speculative commodity has crushed any potential for its use as a MoE. In addition businesses who accept Bitcoin will in most cases be refused banking. If you cannot see this for what it is- a concerted almost global strategy by bankers and governments to prevent Bitcoin MoE adoption, then you are ignoring reality.

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @joda 17h

Yes there are attack vectors, but that doesn't mean they will in fact be exploited, or effectively so. I just see it as one possibility, without being an inevitability.

I think we don't really know how the game theory would play out, because even under your hypothetical 6102, you don't know how countries besides the United States would act. We are moving away from a world where the US can dictate such things.

Furthermore a 6102 may just create a black market for Bitcoin. This can make a product more expensive, as the available supply is constrained. Development would move out of the United States, and focus on privacy features.

There are infinite possible futures we could imagine, but I find I have been least successful when I get paranoid about negative potentialities, and most successful when I assume everything will be fine. Living in a bunker is no way to live.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 14h

There is a difference between paranoia and being realistic. Governments and banks have already acted to prevent Bitcoin developing as a widely adopted MoE, preserving their fiat MoE hegemony. If you can see that you are being naive.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @7e6e393a56 22 Dec

The promotions made by the IMF over the years since its creation: lying, stealing, killing, manipulation, intimidation, manipulation and suffering

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Skipper 22 Dec

There is no good politician

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 22 Dec

i was listening to Nat Brunel interview max Keiser recently and while i enjoyed the interview in general, the amount of Bukele sucking was very off putting

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jeguebra 22 Dec

This world is like an onion, with layers of lies and deceptions

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @jgbtc 22 Dec

It's unfortunate that the people of El Salvador didn't embrace bitcoin more. I keep hearing adoption is very low because people either are too poor to save anything in bitcoin, or are just uninterested. Either way, an incredible opportunity was missed. If widespread adoption occurred and a significant percentage of the population had stacked, the current situation would be very different.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Skipper 22 Dec

adoption is very low because people either are too poor, or are just uninterested

because the people are stupid and don't bother to spend 10 hours studying btc , they rather be poor and blame the rich

21 sats \ 6 replies \ @BallLightning 22 Dec

What do you mean "too poor"? Bitcoin should be usable by both the rich and the poor.

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @Skipper 22 Dec

depends

if you are extremely poor (making single digit $) per week , you won't be able to afford btc(or open your own LN channels) due on chain tx fees and small UXTOs.

you will be forced to use custodials

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @BallLightning 22 Dec

Well, this is a failure of bitcoin then unfortunately. But if bitcoin can't handle this case, you can still can use custodians as you said.

I wrote somewhere something vaguely related that it is that base routing fees make sending very small number of sats too expensive, but I was immediately attacked for, quote, "missing the plot". Go figure.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @jgbtc 23 Dec

I meant being too poor to save anything. Like some people just have barely enough to survive let alone stack sats. I don't how accurate this is, it's just what I've heard is one of the issues preventing more widespread adoption. I wasn't referring to transaction fees.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @BallLightning 23 Dec

Even if you don't have enough to stack, you should be able to use it to buy things you buy as a poor person.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jgbtc 23 Dec

Good point. But I'm talking specifically about the challenges in accumulating bitcoin, not spending. Is usage in spending bitcoin widespread in El Salvador? I didn't realize that.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BallLightning 23 Dec

As far as I know it is not. I am talking about what things should be, not how things are. Furthermore if we ignore the barriers to entry due to transaction fees, we still have the problem of bitcoin volatility. And that's because everything there is priced in dollars. If things there were priced in sats maybe that wouldn't be a problem, but I think prices in sats is something that can only possibly happen at the last stage of bitcoin adoption.

1 sat \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin OP 22 Dec

Bitcoin adoption will never come from a gov declaring it "legal tender". That's a total bullshit.

As i always said:

What does it means that? A sovereign individual is responsible for its own actions and do not let anybody to govern him.

When people will fucking understand this simple fact, then we can talk about adoption. Until then is just bulshitism.

All these Bukeles, Mileis, and Trumps are just politician liars. People should stop giving them attention and stop being fucking slaves. You don't need any gov to tell you what you should use as money. You use what you want and fuck'em'all.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @jgbtc 23 Dec

I agree 100%. Central planning always fails. Only bottom up, organic adoption will have any success.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 23 Dec

Is that why China has risen to be the largest most productive manufacturing economy in the world?

Free markets are always subservient to nation states and nation states and their ability to organise the resources and power projection of their jurisdiction are crucial to the wealth of all nations.

The primary reason the west has been so successful has been its success in power projection and resource hegemony which mostly occurs via the strategy and imperatives of the nation state.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jgbtc 23 Dec

The only reason they aren't eating dirt in China is because of free market reforms. Communism equals slavery so of course they have a productive manufacturing economy with so many slaves to work in the factories. But they allow just enough free market activity so the whole evil system doesn't collapse like the house of cards it is. It will collapse though because central planning always fails.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 23 Dec

Don't let reality get in the way of your Libertarian dogma. Chinas success is based on its determination to develop in its own way and on its own terms. Instead of following the duplicitous 'advice' of western organs of subjugation and imperialism, like the World bank and IMF, China has developed a unique economy based upon its natural strengths and cultural characteristics. It has enjoyed trade surpluses, massive and growing trade surpluses for the last 35 years while the USA and other western economies have suffered over 5 decades of chronic and growing trade deficits. The only thing keeping the USA going is its global fiat debt hegemony via the USD and associated institutions of capture and control- World Bank, IMF, BIS etc. Otherwise the USA is INSOLVENT. Nobody seriously believes it will ever repay its $36+ Trillion debt. Western manufacturers cannot compete with Chinese manufacturing- China has won the trade war. No nations wealth has ever been solely due to free enterprise but has always largely depended upon the nations power projection. The wealth of nations is very much reliant upon the governments of nations. Libertarians are dreaming when they propose otherwise.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 22 Dec

So as things stand in most countries where Bitcoin is allowed it is effectively illegal to use as a MoE as to record and calculate tax on every transaction is something very few people could reasonably do. You and I might choose to ignore the law regarding use of Bitcoin for MoE because the law is BS, but we cannot expect most people to risk their liberty and freedom from prosecution in order to advance Bitcoin. Governments are an inevitable reality. Without government people are thrown into chaos and most likely poverty. How long would you last in an environment where there is no government? Most people would immediately be forced to create their own government of some sort- it is an unavoidable reality of human existence.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @af1f6f3e17 22 Dec

The only way is individual change in the Hoppe way. Can't have hope in politics. Only thing we can do is try to wake up as many as we can, always remembering that the masses will always be the masses, freedom if for the few wanting to listen and practice it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Leonard 22 Dec freebie

As much as i love Bitcoin, the end goal it’s an utopia, its just deep web with extra steps, the flaws of the both internet and mobile networks are not secure by design, in order to achieve what all bitcoin maxis want you will need to reshape all from 0, but of course blindly thinking that all shitcoiners are bad it’s not good for the brain, for example what is bad of Vitalik saying “we need one phone one node”? Can you apply that to Bitcoin? Starfish network design, Of course that’s the true decentralization, but again as much as you will combine and try to do something innovative the end goal and human nature will make the road paved with good intentions and will end up bad, as much as i love bitcoin, everything in life it’s a pyramid scheme, pioneers will always be there and DCA on btc it’s compound interest in its purest form if you analyze it, funny, According to the biblical account in Genesis 11:1-9 (funny equal 21), the tower was intended to reach the heavens and serve as a symbol of human pride and unity.

Now if the bad actors join, the role of maxis probably in the future will be to maintain en equilibrium between good and bad, but for how much time can they do that, you will end up like a theological monk end materialistic thinking just to maintain an order so, Vatican 2.0, mathematics it’s a belief system it’s a religion, the AI just pretend it’s logic, ritual of work it’s active and very strong.

Mathematics are well and good but Nature keeps dragging us around by the nose. Albert Einstein

which reminds me the Iggy Pop lyrics: "The fish doesn't think. The fish knows..."

Memorization of things without understanding its indoctrination.