The Fallacy of Store of Value vs. Medium of Exchange \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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The Fallacy of Store of Value vs. Medium of Exchange

12.4k sats \ 88 comments \ @kepford 9 Dec bitcoin

Much has been written about SoV vs. MoE. I'm not trying to re-hash it here. But as bitcoin's exchange price in US dollars has cracked 100k the investment Slack channel at work started talking about bitcoin.

A long while back I started a bitcoin only channel and we have been growing slowly but with this new discussion we've had kind of a spike in new people. I'm answering a lot of basic questions but something occurred to me this morning. I see a pattern repeating.

I will start by trying to roughly group people.

The Crypto People

The crypto people are usually talking about all the limitations bitcoin has and largely ignoring the reasons, tradeoffs, and benefits. Most of their "arguments" come from ignorance. One thing they don't really say but is implied is that bitcoin will never work as a medium of exchange. Of course, they usually have never heard of Lightning let alone used any of the tech being developed. I rarely hear any of these types of people talk about SoV. They realize that bitcoin is a great store of value. The other thing they talk about of course are those 10x gains.

Minor side note. I have a friend that's into XRP who told me a few weeks ago that bitcoin won't 10x again. I have a reminder set to remind him of what he said in 5 years.

The No Coiners

I've been seeing many questions around bitcoin's adoption and utility as a medium of exchange from the no-coiners in Slack. I assume they are no-coiners based on their questions. They may have "bought" some bitcoin on some service but they are at least new and are clearly not "crypto" people. They also seem to have latched on to this idea that bitcoin is only good for investment. They don't really believe in the SoV but that is really the only thing they are even thinking bitcoin might have going for it. They seem to think of it like a stock. Obviously it would never be a currency. I've pushed back on these thoughts with my own experience with bitcoin and had positive responses.

You see, what both of these types of people think is that bitcoin can't work as a currency. As a medium of exchange. Its not just that they don't think it will be widely adopted as an investment property.

The Vanguard

This is the group you and I fall into. I consider most SN people to be a part of a group I think of as the Vanguard of bitcoin. Some are earlier adopters than others. None of us are late. We believe there is a real need for bitcoin. We are people that have long looked at the world and wondered what was wrong on a very deep level. We have varied political views and ideas about how things should be but we all have deep conviction about bitcoin being a key aspect of making a better future. We are in it for the long term. Its not primarily a way to get rich. Its not about investing. Its about a better world.

We are very different from the average person out there. Some of you might not yet realize this because you are young. You might actually think you are just smarter or special. Of course you are probably smart. Probably smarter than myself but its deeper. You are very different from the average person. If you're like me you will realize that you think about thing most of the people around you do not think about. You think in different ways as well. You question many things others take for granted. I'm not trying to say you are better than others or they are better than you. We are different. We all have value and a role to play in society.

My Thoughts on MoE

A medium of exchange is something widely acceptable in exchange for goods and services. The vanguard will often claim that bitcoin is a medium of exchange. That's true and not true. It can function as one. It is a medium of exchange in certain subcultures but in reality one can't directly exchange it for most goods and services today. Not because the tech doesn't support it but rather because the masses have not adopted it. They don't even understand that it can be used as a MoE.

In case this isn't clear let me explain with an example. Sea shells are not a medium of exchange. No one to my knowledge is using them for this today. I have read that they have been used as currency in the past in certain places. Cigarettes are not a medium of exchange... unless you are in prison. In prisons cigarettes do often function as a medium of exchange in place of fiat paper.

This is what I mean.

Bitcoin can function as a medium of exchange today
Bitcoin does function as a medium of exchange today in smaller markets or subcultures just like other things(cigarettes)
Bitcoin is not a medium of exchange like the US dollar... yet

So, of these three which is least important? The last one.

We all know what bitcoin is and can do. I would argue 99.9% of humans don't even understand bitcoin's value. But, they wonder about MoE. That's the right instinct. I believe outside of the supply cap the ability to transact without a third party is the most important thing bitcoin offers. Without it the supply cap is pretty meaningless. But how do we get there? How do we get to a society where bitcoin is a widely accepted form of payment and exchange?

My View

I say my view because its what I believe. Many have stated this before. Bitcoin in my view will first be seen by most of the world as a good SoV before it will become a MoE. It seems so obvious to me. Granted there are and will be places where MoE is more important or at least equally important but I'm referring to societies where wealth is concentrated.

The people in wealthy nations don't really yet see the need for a new MoE. They do see the need for a place to store their financial energy. But even this SoV aspect isn't widely accepted yet. We haven't even made it that far yet. Kinda mind blowing when you look at the exchange rate today isn't it?

As a significant number of people(who knows what number that is) have bitcoin and value it for its savings properties then they will be more open to its other uses. Right now you have a chicken egg problem. People would not accept something they don't value or understand. People would not spend something they do not have or few accept.

This is why I think it is SO DUMB to argue about SoV vs MoE. Bitcoin can be both. It needs to be both and it will be both. We should be working as members of the vanguard in making sure the ecosystem is ready. Making sure we know the answers to questions. Have written documents. Have produced guides. Have used the tools. Know which ones will work for the people we know.

IMO we still have a long way to go before the average person will "adopt" bitcoin.

I do think there is a intentional attempt to pigeonhole bitcoin as only a SoV. There are a few different reasons for this.

Shitcoiners know they can't compete on SoV but think they can compete on other things
Statists don't want to lose fiat control over society. SoV seems to be less of a threat to their power.
Bitcoiners that run public companies don't want a target on their heads so they downplay bitcoin as currency(Mike Saylor)
Deep state wants to make bitcoin into just another asset like gold. Paper bitcoiners. Something they can regulate. Its largely a psyop vs. direct attack.

Just realize these are not all the same people and some have different motivations.

Action Steps

Don't be reactionary. Don't get sucked into the wrong arguments. It is easy to do. We all fall into this sometimes but try not to. Focus on these things.

Bitcoin can be the currency of the world. It will work. We don't need another crypto
No coiners are not like you. They are almost always believers in the state. They may have more in common with you but they likely aren't ideological about money
Focus on removing mental blocks. The troupes
Don't push. Ask questions and answer questions.
Don't preach to much. You start sounding like a nut or a scammer.

These are my thoughts. I'm still learning and observing.

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255 sats \ 1 reply \ @satcat 9 Dec

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 10 Dec

And Troy burning down is Unit of Account

89 sats \ 10 replies \ @OT 9 Dec

Some good points on leveling up on educational material. I always have to go back and look for it.

Do you think once bitcoin becomes a MoE it stops being the SoV?

11 sats \ 9 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

Do you think once bitcoin becomes a MoE it stops being the SoV?

No. Why would it? Is it going to be inflated? Is it going to lose its utility? It will only lose its SoV properties if it fails either on the economic choice side or technical side.

4 sats \ 8 replies \ @OT 9 Dec

If Bitcoin soaks up most of the worlds capital it will likely retain its purchasing power but not really increase in purchasing power. Maybe that is still a SoV but more people will look for investing opportunities.

I tend to agree that it will grow into a MoE. It's hard to know though as we've never had anything absolutely finite before. A large holder Bitcoin could really move the market.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @SpaceHodler 10 Dec

The point of a SoV is to retain purchasing power. Of course some people will look for investment opportunities, because they will want to grow their purchasing power at a faster rate than holding bitcoin does.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Thank you!

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @028559d218 9 Dec

We do have finite though. It does exist.

It's called NY City real estate. Or real estate in Downtown London. Or Miami Beach Real estate.

Except Bitcoin the 'real estate' you can literally email to someone else in 5 minutes for a very small percentage in fees ... and they can literally have sound, global, energy-based capital available to anyone and everyone 24/7/365. It is an incredible idea imo... and it works!

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @OT 10 Dec

You can always knock down a mansion and build an apartment, or knock down an apartment and make a bigger one.

41 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

I think there's an analogy somewhere.

Bitcoin being the digital 'land' and its use and store of value... being the real-estate on which other businesses are built.

For example micro-payments to pay for Books and Articles, remittance payments in the form of Lightning (even liquid if necessary) and on-chain as a kind of 'final settlement' layer for larger capital movement.

A business pays for something big? Send it on-chain. A contractor needs to pay a vendor for supplies or services? Send it on-chain, it will be settled in an hour and works 24/7/365 globally.

But the volatility needs to decrease (and it will in time) for the 'larger' payments. And the capital gains taxes need to go away even for the small ones.

How can businesses be built on top of Bitcoin, when every transaction even small ones are a 'taxable event' for Capital Gains Tax? Buy a book or Article to read on Lightning... and that's a taxable/CGT event. A cup of coffee? CGT

Tip someone on social media 1000 sats for their cool video...? CGT. The exchange rate you bought the sats... then sent them on Soc Media you have to keep track of this?

No-one can or will it's impossible.

No business can survive this and grow in my opinion, as the moment they get big enough to have real customers it becomes important to track all these tax things which is virtually impossible. We need CGT reforms around Bitcoin for MoE to develop too imo

150 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

No-one can or will it's impossible

Until fiat is killed and/or the state updates the regulation of bitcoin I agree. At least the way you outline it.

It is possible to use bitcoin via something like Strike and avoid a lot of the issues but this is why fiat on one end and bitcoin on another. Businesses do receive bitcoin today and account for it and pay taxes on it. Its difficult but this is a business opportunity to make it less difficult. There are companies that help with this.

But the bigger point is that businesses that do this are vanguard businesses. Not your average business. Your average business is never gonna do this in the current situation. I believe the situation will change. As more people have bitcoin the systems that rely on the respect of the masses (the state) will adapt or die.

It really is up to the plebs. The masses to not tolerate the status quo.

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 10 Dec

100% agree. I believe that eventually... there will be enough public will, enough public desire to change things like CGT for Bitcoin that it will get changed.

If people want it badly enough, and they demand it from their representatives they will get it LOL. Enough of a constituency.

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86 sats \ 2 replies \ @IamSINGLE 10 Dec

Sometimes it's better to wait and watch and not argue with shitcoiners and nocoiners. The truth prevails in the end and I know Bitcoin is the truth.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

For sure. It's a waste of time to argue with people that have closed their minds. Be truthful and authentic. When they are curious they will know where to come.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 10 Dec

This has just come from my very little experience of talking with a few of them. I think most of them target easy money and they are not behind revolution that Bitcoin is.

74 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 9 Dec

I agree it’s a fruitless debate because bitcoin has both qualities or attributes.

You forgot to discuss unit of account lol

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 10 Dec

bitcoin has both qualities or attributes.

Its a good point. I'm not sure the traditional definitions of SoV or MoE really map well to bitcoin.

Bitcoin is currently like a SoV that is incredibly easy to move. Its pretty much a "savings account" that can be used like a checking account if the need arises.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

Nah, I didn't forget...

331 sats \ 22 replies \ @k00b 9 Dec

I do think there is a intentional attempt to pigeonhole bitcoin as only a SoV.

I'd add to this that some of the VC funded companies in Bitcoin, even those championed by the vanguard and vanguard's influencers, have premised their businesses on Bitcoin not succeeding as a MoE.

I'd also recommend @roy's SoV and MoE post. It's the best I've read on this.

235 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks @k00b. I mean, it isn't a MoE yet and who knows how long it will be until it is so as a VC it might be a good bet. VCs aren't thinking as long term as bitcoiners IMO.

68 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 9 Dec

I think good VCs are going to bet all over the place, trusting the founders to be making the right calls. I don't mean to criticize them or the founders of those companies, only to call attention to incentives that run counter to bitcoin being a MoE producing such narratives.

13 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

Yeah, totally.

220 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

@roy's article is much better than mine. He probably spent more time on it and is smarter than me :).

I only have one beef. I don't think you can say bitcoin is a MoE yet. Not in the way I hear economists describe MoE. As I stated in my post.

77 sats \ 1 reply \ @roy 11 Dec

Great stuff @kepford 👏👏👏 Since we 100% agree on the bottom line, the rest is kinda semantics lol (but we can definitely discuss it if you want).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 11 Dec

Nah, you're right. It is 100% semantics but some seem to not get that angle. Language is not math lol. Its why I am ways hated what they now call "language arts" in US schools.

28 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

Dang, didn't realize how alike our titles are. I missed this post. No way I would have seen this and not zapped it. Thanks.

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @028559d218 9 Dec

Wait... which ones??? ???

37 sats \ 13 replies \ @k00b 10 Dec

96 sats \ 11 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

All the Bitcoin-related companies I've used and purchased things from... took Bitcoin as payment. All of them on-chain but some of them Lightning too. That's MoE...

20 sats \ 5 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

See... this is where people get confused. All of the econ people I have read define MoE and a generally accepted medium for goods and services. Its all down to how you define the term. It sounds like the way you are using the term stocks could be a MoE since you can use services and covert stocks to dollars and dollars to stocks.

I think I defined MoE in a limited way on purpose to avoid this confusion. When you talk to normies about bitcoin they almost ask if they can buy stuff with it. Yeah, they can. But what are the chances that the store down the street accepts it? Small. They hear currency and think of other currencies they know about like the dollar.

When you try to tell them its a medium of exchange when it really isn't yet you lose them before you have them. That's my point. We often miss the bigger point.

The point is that adoption is the barrier. Not some flaw in bitcoin.

310 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

Bitcoin will not be a widespread medium of exchange until people

are more comfortable talking about it
stop calling it a scam all the time (like most Western newspapers)
and stop getting burned by 'crypto-scams' on tik-tok (like the spitting hawk thing)

All of this improves with education which will take time. Beyond that Bitcoin needs to be more stable and have better total market penetration... and imo Bitcoin's total addressable market is huge. It is all digital businesses, resources, store-fronts, and capital. It's really big.

And once a large percentage of that has been capitalized... the volatility will decrease and be more practical to use as MoE. But that's not today it will take time, education being the precursor... leading to SoV leading to daily-use leading to market penetration leading to MoE.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Here's the deal. When people start asking or talking about bitcoin you usually only have a few moments before you lose their attention. Easy to get bogged down in stuff that they don't care about or understand.

I don't think I have ever used the phrase "medium of exchange" when talking to a no-coiner. Most people have no clue what that even is...

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

A few times when I've brought up Bitcoin to people... they've been receptive (which is cool!).

And then I see them the next day and they're like 'ya so I bought some dogecoin or Shiba Inu coin on Coinbase! "Elon is going to pump them! Have you heard the recent Tesla news?!" (I've had someone tell me exactly this... like this exact situation.)

And at which point I'm just like kinda speechless lol.

Just to be clear... people are 100% free to do what they want with their money and time... but if they're buying Shiba Inu, even Doge to leave on Coinbase i'm not sure they're ready yet.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

I've never had this experience but everyone I know that has at some point had bitcoin also bought shitcoins and they will say the stuff you outlined.

I usually hear bitcoin or crypto brought up and based on the context I usually clarify that I'm not into shitcoins (alt-coins) and a brief reason why. It feels like something I have to do for exactly your experience. There are so many scams. I've even had a rather well off businessman ask me if he should buy bitcoin. I told him he should understand it. Spend a few hours of research and offered to help him. He passed...

I mean, I get it. He's focused on his business and has a guy do his investment for him. Investment advisors are not recommending bitcoin in high numbers from what I've heard. Not the types that small business owners use at least. The big boys people might be though.

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50 sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b 10 Dec

Oh, I didn't mean all bitcoin companies are betting on bitcoin failing as a non-custodial MoE - just some. I also don't mean it's wrong to place such bets. It just plays a role in our narratives and most of us don't realize it.

15 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Yes, this is a good point. I think Saylor often says things in different ways to different audiences. I'm not defending him, just an observation. He's a prime example of the effect of incentives on how companies talk about bitcoin.

38 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

If M Saylor came out on CNBC... and started talking openly and directly about Bitcoin 'replacing the dollar' or 'competing directly with the dollar as a global safe haven'...

Right or wrong, good bad or indifferent he would get phone calls. Probably from a lot of people.

Even if he believes those things (and maybe he does maybe he doesn't) he absolutely cannot say them in public.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

He sounds like a statist. He says things I disagree with... but he's MUCH closer to my views than the CEO or face of any public company I'm aware of. I'm not aware of a more based dude in that role.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Exactly. I don't care what he really believes. He does have influence but I'm not worried about it. What can I do after all. Just be the positive influence in my circles.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 Dec

when you are a blind bitcoiner follower of influencers, just listen to Darth's voice leading to the light...

77 sats \ 15 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 9 Dec

BTC is nowhere near a MoE, yet. To be a MoE, there has to be wide acceptance of the medium. I don’t think bitcoin or any other altcoin has reached even near that point, yet. Something like in El Salvador has to happen before there will be acceptance. Right now, voluntary acceptance seems to be going at a very slow pace.

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

This is my point. Can be and currently is are different things. I think many bitcoiners do not understand that.

35 sats \ 13 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec

They will learn, although this might become the case in the near future.

165 sats \ 12 replies \ @Lux 10 Dec

This is where i disagree with schools of economics. What percentage of people using it makes it a MoE? Do we need government approval for that? Can I call it MoE if i use it as such, or do i have to wait for the rest of the world?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec

Perhaps 50% of people using a commodity as MoE is good. But is think it may be less if you consider that you could purchase everything you need to live with that commodity. No, you never need state approval. You might have to endure a gun to your head or being kidnapped, but you don’t need state approval. (I have problems with this kind of construction because the state is made of individuals doing sh*tty things, not a collective.) You can call it MoE if it is working that way for you, IMO.

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Money exists with or without the state so I don't think government approval is the key. Think about the prison example. Also, the point isnt how you would define the term. It's how is it defined by the person you speak to or at least making it clear how you define it if that differs from them. Talking past people is an easy mistake to make and key communication flaw.

We can't force definitions on people. We can define what we mean though as I have attempted to do.

168 sats \ 9 replies \ @Lux 10 Dec

Nothing against your article, lots of my own thoughts were written in it.

But saying it's not MoE because it's not widely used is very vague and smells like collectivism to me.

Talking past people is an easy mistake to make and key communication flaw.

we agree

20 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

I know what you mean. Some things sound collectivist that are not. I'm referring to the way the term is used but also trying to make the point it happens spontaneously as well. Money, law, and order predate the state and outside of it. MoE is no different.

21 sats \ 5 replies \ @Lux 10 Dec

Can we agree it is a MoE, just not (yet) widely used? :)

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec

Well said. A “collectivist” thought or thought pattern cannot exist in a world of humans because every human is an individual. Bees and ants are a bit different, though. They have a “collective”.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec

You have a point on talking past people. Most of us here would be using BTC as MoE if they could. The world is just a bit slow on catching up, is all.

60 sats \ 8 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 Dec

Bitcoin is already a MoE.... https://darth-coin.github.io/merchants/bitcoin-lightning-payments-irl-en.html

21 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Yes, it is. And its not. Depends on how define the meaning of the term and the scope of the market you are looking at.

Why didn't you read my post before commenting. You seemed to have missed the point. I use bitcoin as a currency every day. This post comes out of of talking to bitcoin curious people that have fallen into the SoV limitation trap. My whole point is that that is a lie.

Channeling my inner DarthCoin self.

Its funny how many of the comments on this post are proving my points. In economics I've heard no one define MoE in the way many bitcoiners define it. And more practically when no-coiners ask me if they can spend their bitcoin the answer is yes... but its not like you can go to the grocery store and use it like you use your fiat. Stating reality isn't some sort of stupid take. Its the opposite.

I'm not making up definitions here. Language is anarchy. And there are disagreements about what words mean. I think I am very clear about this in the post.

Bitcoiners are good at a lot of things but finding disagreements where none should be may be none is close to the top.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 Dec

I've read it. I do not deny your post. I just commented with additional info for those denying it.

I use bitcoin as a currency every day.

Wrong. Bitcoin is NOT a currency. currency means created by decree by a gov.

you can go to the grocery store and use it like you use your fiat.

I do that almost every day. because I do not have fiat anymore.

Bitcoiners are good at a lot of things but finding disagreements

You tell me... 😂😂😂

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Got it. Thanks Darth. We need more examples for the no-coiners.

Bitcoin is NOT a currency. currency means created by decree by a gov

Really? I mean are you getting that from statists. Because they also believe money is created by decree by governments. Many statist economists deny the spontaneous development of money. But bitcoin is money and gold was money.

Created by decree sounds like fiat not currency. Currency is even used in other communication to describe exchanges in social situations.

Here's the popular definition of currency.

circulation as a medium of exchange

general use, acceptance, or prevalence

I don't think I've ever heard a non-statist say currency is by decree of the state.

37 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 Dec

fiat money = currencies

Can you call bitcoin a currency? Maybe, if you refer to the BTC you have in a CEX and you trade them for other fiat currencies. You made trading, speculation etc

But when is about going to a grocery shop, bitcoin is simply money. not a currency.

general use, acceptance, or prevalence

That is because a currency is declared (decree) a legal tender... now we are going back to what really is a legal tender: #744780

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

Under your definition (remember language isn't by decree either) I agree with you. I just don't think people widely use your definition. I don't think we disagree though Darth. :)

49 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 10 Dec

Until some years ago, when I discovered Bitcoin, I was also very confused about these terms, I was quite ignorant in this matter, even that I tried to step out of the system. Slowly I learned how to make the difference and also talking with people from the banking sector, how they describe these terms.

For many banksters, Bitcoin is just money. But still do not want to say it in public.

We really need to make this difference and separate from the fiat in all ways possible. Otherwise normies will be really confused.

Most of the people are trying to fit bitcoin into existing financial system. They are wrong. Bitcoin will change TOTALLY the whole financial system. Instead of building same old system around Bitcoin , try to change the whole system to be adapted to Bitcoin.

The perfect stupid example are those fucking "bitcoin visa debit cards". The people issuing them are FUCKING MORONS that do not want the fiat system go away. They literally live in the past.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

That's interesting. The normies I know would use money, currency, and dollars all interchangeably. They have no clue what MoE or SoV are. They are not educated on economics. I mean they know a lot of fallacies of Keynesian Economics but that's mis-information. I try to meet them where they are. I was once where they are and I try to remember that. It can be hard because I'm wired different.

I think most people are followers and question very little around them. I can't change who they are but I can influence them as they have been influenced by the system.

I think we have to adapt the message to the audience so sometimes that means we say things in ways that might make others cringe. That' my approach at least.

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75 sats \ 1 reply \ @B_rian 9 Dec

The largest capital sources in the world will adopt bitcoin in this pattern: Store of Value -> Unit of Account -> Medium of Exchange

Many early adopters ran the reverse pattern.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 10 Dec

I have to admit my brain prices things in dollars out of habit

52 sats \ 4 replies \ @jgbtc 10 Dec

My personal usage of bitcoin as MoE has been steadily increasing over the last year or so, and I expect that trend to continue.

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

I believe things like that open many eyes. When someone said in the work slack that you can't use bitcoin for small transactions I was able to not only correct that but explain how I do it each day. Many questions followed.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @shadowybadger 15 Dec

do you run your own lightning node?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 15 Dec

Sure. Nodes

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 16 Dec

Nice

66 sats \ 3 replies \ @freetx 9 Dec

It makes no sense to use something that is gaining 60% per year as a MoE. Its "Laslo's Pizza Syndrome". Those who use that as a SoV will do better than those that spend it on coffee (and that coffee will cost them 10x in a few years)

At some point, if BTC stabilizes and starts growing at ~10% per year, then MoE will take off.

But it will take us many years to find out what is the stabilization point. The only way we will know is when we see it proven to us over a 3-5 year timeframe.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 9 Dec

You are right about the incentive direction. Its the inverse of an inflationary money. If your paycheck drops in value as fast as it does in hyper inflation you rush to the store to buy what you need while you can.

But how do we make sure we build the ecosystem? Spend and replace. But that's not as much an economical choice as an ideological choice. Few, will do that. The good news is that no one spends dollars out of ideology.

121 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 9 Dec

Let me play the devil's advocate.

Pretend that someone has only Bitcoin. No dollars, not fiat money just Bitcoin they have no fiat.

They are hungry for groceries. Their car needs gas, and they have to pay their electric bill and their rent to have shelter.

Are they going to spend the Bitcoin? Hell ya they are.

"Oh but it might go up" ya no kidding. So might the S&P, so might NVIDIA. But you are hungry and need gas in your car so you will spend your Bitcoin to provide for yourself. You are not going to waste it... but 10,000 years of human consumption proves that humans consume and so you will spend to provide for yourself.

I see a lot of comments about Bitcoin that 'noone will spend it' because it could 'go up' well if it's the only thing you have access to... going up is irrelevant. One needs to eat and pay the bills people will spend it when they have to.

Note that I did not say 'sell it'... but spend it directly at the grocery store which is the future.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec

You are also correct, obviously. As you say you could make the same argument about pretty much anything if that is all you have...

There are also people that make dumb economic decisions that seem counter-intuitive.

38 sats \ 0 replies \ @sagars209 10 Dec

"Don't preach too much. You start sounding like a nut or a scammer." this made me laugh and relate to the sentiment.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec

'I believe outside of the supply cap the ability to transact without a third party is the most important thing bitcoin offers. Without it the supply cap is pretty meaningless. But how do we get there? How do we get to a society where bitcoin is a widely accepted form of payment and exchange?'

SoV and MoE are both crucial factors in assessing the value of a money. To only have one, but not the other is to have a substandard money. Bitcoin is a threat to fiat money only if it achieves MoE acceptance/use. If Bitcoin remains largely seen as and used as a speculative commodity it is not a substantial threat to the fiat debt slavery monetary system.

Consider carefully how Bitcoins primary stated purpose as a P2P payments protocol has been slyly and relentlessly obstructed by governments and bankers. By designating Bitcoin a commodity and thus subject to CGT, governments have slyly but severely obstructed Bitcoins use as a MoE because to use it as a MoE would require an absurd amount of record keeping. Businesses have been obstructed from accepting Bitcoin by banks threatening to close their fiat banking access. In my country and I believe in most 'liberal western democracies' who are subservient to the USD SWIFT hegemony, if you seek to open a business bank account you will be asked if you intend to use cryptocurrency in your business- if you say yes you will be refused banking.

In other jurisdictions where there may be less pretense of a 'free market' Bitcoin use for MoE is simply outlawed- Thailand and China for example. So in nearly all jurisdictions use of Bitcoin as a MoE is severely obstructed if not outright banned. The example El Salvador gives- where instead there is support from the government shows Bitcoin can be allowed for MoE without any major problems in fact substantial advantages. Bitcoin can provide healthy competition to the fiat monetary system. But the operators of fiat monetary hegemony do not want such competition- precisely because Bitcoin CAN provide substantial competition to their very profitable Fiat Debt Slavery monetary system.

Because the banks and governments have succeeded in severely limiting Bitcoin use as a MoE they have positioned themselves very well. As long as Bitcoin remains mostly only used as a SoV/speculative commodity it is not a serious threat- in fact it has been captured as a speculative plaything. The ETFs advance this fiat capture and control strategy further- they enable more and more Bitcoin to be held by ETFs in a form where it quite explicitly cannot be used for P2p payments. The more Bitcoin held under institutional custody the less liquidity is available for P2P payments, and the more the perception of Bitcoin as a speculative commodity plaything is entrenched.

This positions the bankers/governments well if they decide at any point in the future that a ban on private custody is required. At that point the more institutional custody the better. A ban on private custody however may not ever be required because they have so far succeeded so slyly in obstructing Bitcoins us as a P2p payments protocol and shifting the perception and use of it into SoV speculative commodity.

Note- as a speculative commodity without any substantial realised MoE utility Bitcoin is in some ways no more than a PONZI scheme. If Bitcoin remains seen as and used as a speculative commodity 'SoV' then if at any point its value vs fiat peaks and further speculative gains are seen as unlikely then its value adding formula ceases to make sense...and there is then 'a run on the bank'.

A great deal of the value being added currently is from institutional custody capture via ETFs and even corporate US domiciled treasury allocations can be seen in this category as they would be almost certain to comply with any compulsory Executive Order ban on private custody.

It is the MoE of any monetary system that gives it power and value as the ability to enable exchanges of value between participants in an economy is the most powerful value adding function in any economy. The fiat debt slavery bankers cartel know this full well. Look at SWIFT to see the strategic potency of controlling MoE. Without MoE use, Bitcoin is on a pathway to capture and control by the fiat debt slavery cartel, and ultimately will have failed as it will have failed to provide a viable alternative to their hegemony.

54 sats \ 7 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

It is the MoE of any monetary system that gives it power and value as the ability to enable exchanges of value between participants in an economy is the most powerful value adding function in any economy.

Bitcoin is permission-less. Anyone can download Sparrow wallet (or if they want to be paranoid, download and run TAILS OS) or have a seed phrase generated through electrum... buy Bitcoin for cash peer to peer and add it to the seed phrase.

Done. Then use the Bitcoin for savings, goods and services whatever p2p using bisq, hodl hodl, robosats etc.

Personally I don't think this is even necessary though.

The more people learn about Bitcoin, the more and more individuals and organizations will want to self custody it for savings and also to spend when necessary. No-one can stop transactions... the value proposition is really really big.

We were talking about this earlier in the thread.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec

Trouble is you are ignoring the systematic obstruction of Bitcoin as a MoE which I have also described above.

You are also ignoring the steady increase in Bitcoin held by institutions like ETFs where the use of that Bitcoin is explicitly NOT available for P2P payments.

The bankers and governments in western 'liberal democracies' have slyly obstructed MoE Bitcoin utility via arbitrary tax designation of it as a commodity this liable for CGT assessment on every transaction and by blocking or threatening to block banking access to businesses that admit they use crypto/bitcoin.

Sure its possible still for me to send you sats P2P but how many people who hold Bitcoin use it that way to any degree? Sweet Fuck All- because of the obstructions that have been put in place.

The bankers and governments are waging war, slyly obstructing MoE use because as long as Bitcoin remains largely confined to use as a speculative commodity its no real threat to them and is easily captured and controlled by them.

They do not need to capture and control 100% - but as long as the great majority of Bitcoin is not being used as a MoE they have the upper hand...and their fiat MoE hegemony is preserved.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

I don't think Bitcoin can be stopped. And I also believe the utility-value, for sending and receiving, is great enough where people and organizations will want to use it.

They may not know how to use it yet... and they may never have used it but I still think they will eventually.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec

Blind faith is blind faith. There is no contest of ideas with it. No reasoned debate.

Dealing with the real world is a different thing.

Lets deal with reality shall we-

The fiat debt slavery bankers cartel is the most powerful, well connected cartel and market fixing parasite on the planet.

I have described above how they are obstructing Bitcoins use as a MoE and how they can be reasonably expected to do anything in their power to prevent Bitcoin from meaningfully competing with their MoE hegemony.

Or do you disagree?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 10 Dec

I disagree. If Bitcoin is appealing enough to hold and use on its own merits... then people will use it. To save, to transact, to send and receive.

Personally I really like proton wallet, I have used it a few times and the 'use case' of sending something like Bitcoin with it is just so obvious... it's a no-brainer imo.

The governments cant try to to obstruct that all they want... but I don't think they will be that successful. As a matter of fact, I don't think it's government obstruction that keeps people from using Bitcoin right now. It's the lack of education instead.

People who already use Proton can easily switch to Proton Wallet... buy some Bitcoin on an exchange and send it to PW. Then pay for things in it, save it, travel with it whatever they want to do.

There is no reason the 'fiat debt cartel' can stop that.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec

You ignore repeatedly the comprehensive and extensive OBSTRUCTIONS to MoE Bitcoin use that I have described.

You dont accept that government obstruction prevents use now? How can any citizens use Bitcoin legally while accounting for each and every transaction for CGT assessment purposes? It is a nonsense to expect anyone to keep such detailed records of each and every transaction using Bitcoin- currently if you use Bitcoin for MoE on a regular basis you are almost certainly doing so in breach of the law!

Governments and bankers are absolutely and determinedly obstructing Bitcoin use- ask any business that accepts Bitcoin if they have told their bank and what their banks response was- most cases they do not tell their bank because to do so risks loss of fiat banking access!

These are the facts you are ignoring.

Agree that Proton mail acceptance and provision of a wallet is a good thing- based in Switzerland they have a fairly supportive jurisdiction and like El Salvador Switzerland is generally accepting of the rights of citizens above those of fiat debt bankers- note Switzerland was the last nation to retain a gold backed currency- so yes there are some areas of hope...but also many areas for concern too because unfortunately they are outliers and much more exceptions than the rule.

Bitcoin is an excellent form of money for the individual user but it is equally a very challenging concept for the operators of fiat debt based monetary systems. Bitcoin has the potential to take away their power and wealth...and they know it.

That is why they have in nearly all jurisdictions either obstructed it or outright banned it.

El Salvador has allowed Bitcoin MoE and that may well be in part because they did not operate a state fiat system and so the state lost nothing by allowing Bitcoin MoE use- that situation is not the case in most countries.

You can ignore the logic and imperatives of the fiat debt monetary system operators but that does not remove them from reality- they are very real and very motivated to prevent Bitcoin from displacing their fiat hegemony.

As long as Bitcoin is almost exclusively used only as a SoV they are safe- if Bitcoin were to even begin to emerge as a widely used MoE competitor the legacy fiat powers have positioned themselves very nicely for a ban on private custody...they are everyday increasing the amount held under institutional custody and they have to date prevented any significant use of Bitcoin for MoE.

There is no inevitable outcome- it is however a real contest for control...between Bitcoin and the fiat cartel...

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 10 Dec

Well I mean yes you are right. People have to just decide... to ignore the CGT laws and restrictions and spend Bitcoin, where they reasonably can, day to day. Because like you said tracking every zap, every lightning transaction would be nearly impossible (if not outright impossible) for CGT purposes.

Beyond individuals and small organizations (?) ignoring the CGT taxes on Bitcoin... the voters have to come together to a form a constituency that demands the removal of CGT taxes on at least small Bitcoin transactions. That way it has the chance of being used as a MoE...

I think at that point education is important too. Relatively speaking larger transactions, sending whole UTXOs, will be for on-chain. And Lightning will be for smaller transactions that are almost instantaneous.

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