2998 sats \ 69 comments \ @Undisciplined 30 Jul FiresidePhilosophy

This is a question I mull over occasionally. We hear about "toxic masculinity" all the time and I think it's a perfectly easy concept to grasp. That implies there's a healthy masculinity, but we don't hear about that nearly as often.

This topic popped into my head while watching the Trump assassination attempt video. My eyes were drawn to the men in the background who dove to cover their loved ones. In particular, I noticed one man who was apparently there with his kid and I could feel his terror as he covered his kid with his body until well after the shots stopped. It's hard to convey to those without kids how resonant that imagery is. Then we find out that the man who died, Corey Comperatore, was shielding his family with his body. In my book, that's as masculine as it gets and that man is as big of a hero as anyone can be.

I was listening to Part of the Problem earlier today and they were talking about masculinity. Dave was making fun of the lame superficial internet version that's embodied by Andrew Tate. His take was that masculinity boils down to "protection and provision". They also discussed the importance of being "peaceful, but not harmless" and how being harmless is essentially the least masculine trait.

At the heart of this, there's a recognition that ultimately we are more expendable than our loved ones and we need to be able to act on that.

What do you all think? I'm eager to hear your thoughts.

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271 sats \ 1 reply \ @Signal312 30 Jul

Here's an extract from the book "The Old Way", by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. This came to mind when thinking of masculinity. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas was 19 years old, the book was written based on her notes from when she was with her parents, who were living with the Bushmen in the Kalahari. Really interesting book, btw.

On a number of other occasions, lions came at night to view the Ju/wasi. I remember one night in particular, when my mother was at the Ju/wa encampment, and I was in my parents’ tent at our camp writing notes. I soon heard a man’s strong voice in a stern, commanding tone telling someone to leave immediately. The Ju/wasi never took that tone with one another.

I came out of the tent to see what was happening, and behind some of the shelters I saw four very large lions, each three times the size of a person, all standing very tall as if on tiptoe, stretching their necks, looking over the tops of the shelters at the people. The women and children were sitting perfectly still, but two of the men were on their feet, standing with knees and elbows bent, the partial crouch of someone confronted. The lions began to shift a little, as if they were uneasy. They had been seen. What might have started as a viewing session was turning into a confrontation. They didn’t seem entirely comfortable with that.

The speaker was ≠Toma. Without taking his eyes off the lions, he repeated his command while reaching one hand back to grasp a flaming branch that someone behind him was handing to him. He slowly raised it shoulder-high and shook it. Sparks showered down around him. “Old lions,” he was saying firmly and clearly, “you can’t be here. If you come nearer we will hurt you. So go now! Go!”

He had the full attention of the lions. Perhaps they knew about burns. Also, like many other animals, they might have been impressed by the extra size the flaming branch had added to what at first might have seemed to be a little creature. Suddenly he became much bigger. The lions watched ≠Toma for a moment longer, then gracefully they turned and vanished into the night.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

Wow. I grew up around bears, but standing up to several lions is quite a bit beyond standing up to one black bear.

130 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 30 Jul

I find it intriguing that you brought up the notion of being 'peaceful yet not harmless'. This suggests that masculinity can encompass both strength and the ability to protect others without resorting to aggression. It's a refreshing perspective that challenges traditional stereotypes.

238 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I believe that's an old Jordan Peterson perspective. The implication is that self-control is an essential part of masculinity.

117 sats \ 0 replies \ @TomK 30 Jul

I once read about a binary explanation for this phenomenon in a biology book 40 years ago, but I no longer dare to talk about it today. PS: the Hermphrodite was nothing but a shadow of ancient Greek mythology wafting in the distance

75 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 30 Jul

Grace under pressure

144 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave 30 Jul

To me the masculine protects and envisions. We are the builders. The seers. The positive polarity of forward momentum. The feminine is earthy and stable, creates a home, nourishing, intuitive, negative polarity to pull the her man back to a safe home. Both have their shadow sides and what we call "toxic masculinity" is really just toxicity and trauma in general.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @SatsMate 31 Jul

I think masculinity can be defined in different ways.

I think generally it is living your ultimate purpose, being a protector, a provider and someone that has alot of courage! We need more masculine men in society, but there is too much junk dragging many people down.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @tomlaies 31 Jul

ultimate purpose, being a protector, a provider

How many men can provide nowadays? And of those how many are under 40?

And even if they did - how many women would accept this kind of lifestyle to make it work on a single lifestyle. I believe that it actually could be possible for a lot of people but almost zero are ready for this kind of frugality.

So if those men can't provide. They aren't masculine?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 31 Jul

Masculinity is a character trait, so it's not about your circumstances, but how you think and behave. If the men you're talking about would provide for and protect their family if they had one, then they'd be masculine men.

If they're hiding behind convenient excuses for not having accomplished what they want in life, while shifting blame to others, that would not be very masculine.

69 sats \ 0 replies \ @Akg10s33 1 Aug

I share the idea of being peaceful but not harmless... it is quite clear and applicable to our daily life as parents... in particular I have 3 little ones ranging in age from adolescence to still diapers... and it is difficult to deal with the 3 ages at at the same time... and protect them physically and mentally and teach them the right thing every day... the truth is that it is more difficult... but honestly one does it out of love for them... not because we believe that it is our responsibility... of course. No... I think that masculinity includes a lot of the role that you can fulfill as a father and that you can do it well💪

79 sats \ 4 replies \ @TNStacker 30 Jul

Are we talking about masculinity or are we talking about manhood? Masculinity separated boys and men from women and girls. Manhood separates men from boys. There are many men walking around with no real concept of manhood and the responsibility vested with it.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I wasn't aware of that distinction. Let's say this is about Manhood, but I'm curious about your thoughts on both.

152 sats \ 1 reply \ @TNStacker 30 Jul

Masculinity comes naturally. Manhood must be taught, modeled, and coached. It should be the father (or male surrogate, preferably family) and the men he associates with teaching the son. However, unfortunately, we have far too many males reared by women (some bitter and angry towards the father. Some who just have misguided notions about what a man is because they just don't know. They try to shape their sons into the man they wanted the father to be.

Men are not ashamed of their masculinity nor manhood.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 30 Jul

As of late, there has been a lot of outcry about masculinity. You have all of these younger generation boys thinking they are girls and things. Its pretty heartbreaking.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 30 Jul

This is so true. So many boys walking around in adult bodies wearing shorts.

169 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby 30 Jul

Here are a few traits I think healthy masculinity.

Sacrifice- putting your family and loved ones well being before your own. Leadership- Setting an example for those around you. Continuously trying to make yourself better and helping others improve themselves. Sharing your knowledge, wisdom, experience with the next generation. Loyalty- being someone people can rely on and trust.

92 sats \ 0 replies \ @Car 30 Jul

💯 see a lot of this in Austin Bitcoin community and my Church community. No one is perfect at this, its a journey.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I like those additions. Mentoring seems like a particularly masculine activity.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @cristaiji 31 Jul

Great post. Both masculinity and femininity have been under attack in recent years. There is nothing intrinsically toxic about either however both of course have their shadow sides - reference to Jungian psychology/spirituality. Masculinity to me has come to mean what you say - protective, providing, building and willing to die to protect his family.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @Kontext 31 Jul

"Masculinity boils down to "protection and provision". They also discussed the importance of being "peaceful, but not harmless" and how being harmless is essentially the least masculine trait."

That sums it up pretty nicely I think. Really, what masculinity should represent is the ability to fulfill the quintessential duties of a man, as per by nature, "protect and provide."

I once came across this short clip somewhere, not sure who the speaker is, but she is also very much on point:

"Masculinity in and of itself is not toxic, it's the opposite of toxic. It's noble, it's stoic, it's strong; it's like a pillar for the family."

The clip itself: https://x.com/Kontext17/status/1789326690541346937

Older/indigenous cultures usually had an initiation ritual for boys to become men. We don't have that anymore and as such, many men remain boys, which is where the idea of "toxic masculinity" stems from.

73 sats \ 3 replies \ @SimpleStacker 30 Jul

Many people have already provided great responses. I'll just add one thought:

"It is shameful for a society to draft women into its military."

I believe many people would agree with this statement instinctively.

Yet, modern ideology, which refuses to acknowledge differences in gender roles, has no intellectual foundation on which to defend the above statement.

Will there come a point where western intellectuals will finally admit that there are differences between male and female--whether evolutionary and biological, or religious and ontological--and stop getting mad at anyone who would suggest otherwise?

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @tomlaies 31 Jul

"It is shameful for a society to draft women into its military." I believe many people would agree with this statement instinctively.

I wouldn't. Women have been part of the military since forever - granted more on the side of the red cross an in the supply line and the like. In modern warfare the most valuable skill is using your brain and your fingers to operate drones where I don't see any reason why women shouldn't be able to do it.

You wanted equality for everybody we'll give you equality for everybody, fair is fair.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 31 Jul

I agree with you when it comes to joining the military, but not drafting. Then again, I don't think men should be drafted either.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I remember arguing about this with a feminist activist at Costco when I was a teenager. She was collecting signatures for a petition to make women equal to men by making them draft eligible. I was freshly pissed off about having to register for Selective Service and I laid into her.

While I agree with your statement, I'm strongly against drafting anyone.

163 sats \ 3 replies \ @Coinsreporter 31 Jul

Manhood in the Making

Aside from this notion of fecundity, there are other aspects that need discussion here. Most striking is a powerful belief that masculinity is an artificially induced status, that it is achievable only through testing and careful instruction. Real men do not simply emerge naturally over time like butterflies from boyish cocoons; they must be assiduously coaxed from their juvenescent shells, shaped and nurtured, counseled and prodded into manhood.

The real man gains renown by standing between his family and destruction, absorbing the blows of fate with equanimity.

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 31 Jul

The real man gains renown by standing between his family and destruction

Love it!

63 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinsreporter 31 Jul

Ohh! Just forgot to mention that it's a great book about Masculinity by David D. Gilmore.

There are many extracts which you gonna love. It's my testament to learn masculinity.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Kontext 31 Jul

On the list it goes! That 2nd quote is 🔥🔥🔥 Thanks for sharing!

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @ContraMundum 30 Jul

Best answer I’ve ever heard is…The glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility. D. Wilson

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

That's good.

42 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 30 Jul

"protection and provision"

I couldn't say it any better.

55 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

That phrase made me want to write this post.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 30 Jul

When I first saw my first born there was an instant and profound change inside of me. It is hard to put into words.

55 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

That's interesting. I remember Dave Smith describing simultaneously feeling more love for everyone and a willingness to kill anyone who might threaten his kid.

I don't recall a similar change, personally. I think mine was a bit more gradual and set in throughout the pregnancy.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 30 Jul

Yeah, there was a more gradual change as well and still is happening in some ways as my kids mature.

42 sats \ 8 replies \ @siggy47 30 Jul

ultimately we are more expendable than our loved ones and we need to be able to act on that.

That sums it up nicely.

96 sats \ 3 replies \ @TNStacker 30 Jul

We are actually not more expendable, except in the specific case and time where it is you or your family. In most cases and times we are not expendable at all.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 30 Jul

Yes. It's only true in those rare, horrific moments. Or, unless a really angry wife knows our keys.

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 30 Jul

💯

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

Agreed. I had trouble articulating that well.

54 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

That first sank in with me after that theater shooting in Aurora, CO. There were several young men who were shot and killed shielding their dates from the shooter. It hit me like a ton of bricks that they died in a quintessentially noble way.

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 30 Jul

I remember that well. My daughter was 11, and I took her to all the kid movies. It really affected me. I would envision leaping across my seat to cover her.

54 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

It's interesting how when you're young and single you think about how you'd take out the shooter. but once you have a family it's all about how you keep them as safe as possible.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 30 Jul

I know I read a quote years ago that I think was attributed to Bob Dylan. Something like you worry about yourself until you have a child. Then all your worry is focused on them, and you don't worry much about yourself.

142 sats \ 5 replies \ @JesseJames 30 Jul

Allow me to quote one of the best commanders of our Military: Gen. James Norman Mattis aka. "Mad Dog" or "Chaos" USMC (slightly paraphrasing) "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill every MF you meet". Is that masculine enough for ya...? :-) He got few more of those but the basic premise was the same (Si vis pacem, para bellum)

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I get where he's coming from, but it strikes me as a bit unhinged.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 30 Jul

Makes sense from a military perspective

Or Patton: make the other guy die for his country

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

True, but I tend to think military perspectives are unhinged.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 31 Jul

Sure but in the context of battle Patton is correct because war is hell

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Enemy_of_the_state 3 Aug

This….^^^^

As we have seen time and again, you never know who, or what, or where, and you don’t get to choose.

I find myself gaming out scenarios in my head, throughout my day instinctively. Choose to be the hunter, instead of the prey.

42 sats \ 6 replies \ @didiplaywell 30 Jul

Me and my friends have a signed agreement which states that any word or action preceded by the quintessential "no-homo" statement will thus be considered fully within the realms of masculinity. So I think that's a robust legal definition.

20 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I'm guessing you guys don't have kids yet.

42 sats \ 4 replies \ @didiplaywell 30 Jul

One of my bros has a daughter. But she's still a baby so can't be ashamed of her father. Yet.

75 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

That's not what I was getting. It just seemed like something young single guys would do.

52 sats \ 2 replies \ @didiplaywell 30 Jul

Shame on you for considering immaturity is a privilege of the young 😑

41 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

There are different flavors of immaturity and your tastes for them will change with your stage of life.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @didiplaywell 30 Jul

For now we are stuck in keeping a cult to 4-chan level of autism. God forbid the day we have to get past that point :'(

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @pbl4eagain 30 Jul

Masculinity to me has been Compassion and patience to the world aand Protecting and Providing for your loved one.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Msd0457890 30 Jul

I agree with you, the problem is that being sexist, the man who only works and never does chores, has always been confused with being a man.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

That's another type of pathological masculinity. I'm not sure if there's a term for it.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Taft 30 Jul

It's hard to convey to those without kids how resonant that imagery is.

You are right. It’s hard. I can only imagine from outside the terror a parent feels in such situations.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 30 Jul

The man that died protecting his family was brave and heroic, but not necessarily masculine. There are also stories of mother's pulling a kind of superpower out of nowhere to protect their kids.

I think masculinity lies somewhere around the field of the stoic. Strength, confidence and calm.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 30 Jul

I think it's masculine, because we'd think it odd for a woman to sacrifice herself like that to protect her husband. Of course a mom would go to any length to protect her kids.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @plebone 30 Jul

Protecting those you love, having etiquette or practicing old school chivalry, and being as capable as time, effort, and resources allow.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 31 Jul

https://m.stacker.news/42607

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Chronicsats 30 Jul

The concept of healthy masculinity is often overshadowed by discussions of toxic masculinity, but examples of true, positive masculinity can be profoundly impactful. Consider the man who shielded his child during the Trump assassination attempt—his actions epitomize selflessness and bravery. This aligns with the idea that genuine masculinity encompasses "protection and provision," as discussed on "Part of the Problem." True masculinity is about being strong yet compassionate, capable of defense yet striving for peace.

22 sats \ 0 replies \ @JesseJames 3 Aug

The guy was a Firefighter a second instinct to him and a sign of heroism and selflessness. Fret not, he is OK now drinking with Odin in Valhalla, watching from above...

Toxic masculinity is an invented term, so these clowns has something to talk and bitch about. The guy is a guy, and some guys are idiots, that's all there is to it.... it goes both ways but no one is talking about toxic femininity now, are they?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 30 Jul

I always thought that Sean Connery was the definition of masculinity.