Although I am a fan of broadening one's knowledge, I absolutely, vigorously hate modern education: the interesting fields like psychology, human behavior, culture, health and diet are always behind a gate through which one can only enter of you have a fitting certificate, which I do not have.
I like to learn about specific fields and topics, but that's nothing one could find work with.
Pretty much all of today's education caters to the purpose of being able to work a certain job, a certain way, and I hate it.
I want to be well read, I want to follow courses on different topics, but you'll have to either spend money and time on something that doesn't yield an income, or time and energy (and less money) on structuring the whole effort oneself.
Everything is catered to being able to work a job, instead of being a well-informed, educated human. I. Hate. It.
I'm currently trying to get one of these required certifications in order to enroll in one of the above field's studies, but I am already regretting that decision: it's very much to learn, but practically everything à la "An inch deep, a mile wide", and I hate it.
I'm seriously considering working some trades job, and doing the learning myself; maybe I'll turn into an actually well-read and educated person that way, instead of slaving away years on end in the hopes of acquiring a title, find a job, and pay off the debt, only to be "stuck" in said job because of the study.
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Do you have any particular topics you’re interested in that you could out-source preliminary research for?
For example, if I were interested in learning more about the French Revolution, given what I know now, I’d probably start by picking up an art history book and look into who was commissioning the art or providing patronage for the artists. But I’d have no clue where to start learning about how the thought was influenced at the time other than the relationship with the American Revolution and Thomas Jefferson, so I’d probably need to read about who Thomas Jefferson was talking to in France, and then look into what other thinkers those people were talking to.
It might feel a little silly at first, but I also recommend keeping a notebook or two just to keep track of where research sends you until you start to see the patterns of what interests you. Then you’re able to really double down on looking for the right sources.
Edit: I also think it’s perfectly normal and even good to understand that certain topics might be dead ends. For me, the idea of how Cartesian duality has affected how our culture relates to our bodies is a rather interesting topic. However, I also realize it’s a big can of snakes to go down and it might not be especially applicable or prudent to what I’m trying to do today. So it’s something I keep in the back of my mind but not something I’m pounding the ground looking for answers to.
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I have, but as I've said: those wouldn't yield any income, and I'd have to structure it myself, which I'm okay to do, but that's where the modern system fails me.
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July 14 is Bastille Day 1789
The French Revolution was a Jacobin movement that degenerated into a reign of terror with heads rolling
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In my experience (which is substantial on this matter), you can approach education with the intention of learning and without much regard for later employment.
I seldom invested much energy in work that I wasn't interested in or that didn't lead to something I was interested in. My teachers and professors often found this irritating, but I wasn't there to please them, I was there to learn.
It's a frustrating route to take, but you can take it.
You're other idea is good, too, though. There's relatively little you can't teach yourself, if you're motivated. Some of the advanced mathematics I took would have been beyond me, if I were on my own, but most everything else would have been doable.
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The great thing about the age in which we live is it is easier than ever to be self-taught.
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Yep. It is amazing but accreditation is the missing piece. The existing education complex has a vested interest in keeping people going through their pipelines. I think the real change is already happening. Employers lowering requirements or doing their own training. Additionally the whole idea of being an employee changing as well.
So called higher education in the US is getting ready to hit a demographic wall with the decline in birth rates. Its is going to be interesting to watch. I started my career working in so called higher ed and this and other trends were a big reason I got out.
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I looked at Bachelor's today, and all of them were furiously pointing you towards a master's to professionalize in one industry! As if spending years and years and a hefty sum of money wasn't enough, no! You gotta do it again if you really wanna make it work!
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Yep, even years ago when I finished my BS working full time with two kids my co-workers and managers in education were pushing me to get a masters. It is insane. I quit my education job after 6 years and went to work in the real world and learned more, had more fun, and made more money. It was harder work but more rewarding.
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Damn, that's mighty-impressive! What BS? And what did you switch to?
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Its not that impressive honestly. Bachelors of Science in Information Technology. It was just a grind really. I learned 10x more in my first few years of actually doing the work(which I was doing while getting the degree). Most of what I was learning was out of date when I was learning it and the rest was out of date in a few years. I didn't attend MIT or anything. I just needed that paper to get certain jobs at the time. I think the field has changed today and if I were in my twenties now I'd do it different but that was the path back then.
A successful engineer I met once told me that I should approach the craft like this. You aren't the smartest or the most talented but you can work harder than most people in the field if you are willing to do it. You can continually invest in your knowledge and education over time and I have never stopped doing that. I think this applies to life more broadly. If you aren't lazy and are willing to sweat you can make it.
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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @Fabs OP 27 Jun
Hm, well, working full time with two kids puts in into a whole other level of difficulty!
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That's fair. I just don't think about it that way. It was hard but there are single parents that do it and I thankfully have never been in that situation.
Yes, sadly that doesn't amount to anything in regards to income.
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Yes and no. If you want to move up the corporate ladder you probably need the diploma but if you want to freelance or start your own business you can definitely be self taught and take your skills and knowledge to market.
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I second this. I'm yet to become my own boss, but now more than ever people have the power to build their own business and I think this will become more prominent as people continue to exit the conventional 9 to 5. Literally just by writing on SN frequently has gotten me close to landing a writing freelance gig that I would have never thought of applying for before.
I read somewhere the importance of 'start small, think big'. In my mind, the think big part is to think about building your own business and making something for yourself without having to rely on someone choosing you. In this way all the work you put in for the expansion of your own knowledge can be used however you please and is not dependent on the whims of others.
My gf is job hunting right now and like many others is struggling to land anything. So I told her she can continue job hunting but also start building towards having her own business whatever it may be. Because she is a very capable and intelligent person and it would be so much cooler to see her build towards her own thing than working for someone just for the money.
So @Fabs don't become discouraged because of the current broken system. Your mentality to want to continue learning even though it may seem like it isn't paying off is you still stacking knowledge and continuing the process of 'starting small'. But don't forget to 'think big' because the literal difference between someone who finds immense success in life and someone who succumbs to being average is how big they dare to think.
You got this friend!
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Hm, you're poking at entrepreneurship, ain't it? It's not for everyone, and certainly not for me, but I get your message. 🤠
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151 sats \ 1 reply \ @cd 27 Jun
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -- Mark Twain
As someone who fooled themself into years of upper education in pursuit of nothing but my own interests, I can say that I found far more education outside that system since abandoning it
Why would I spend a year of my time and LOTS of money to learn about Descartes first, when all I wanted to study were the Classical Greeks?
Modern schooling erects many roadblocks to learning, masquerading as a form of meritocracy, but I would argue it has actually resulted in far less meaningful education overall
Don't take my word for it, either; look at literacy alone - the founding documents of America were considered to be at the reading level of children of the time, as was the pamphlet 'Common Sense'
Another example: what was Alice doing before she went on her Adventures in Wonderland? The young girl was studying Latin, and that was a perfectly normal scene at the time of writing
I ended up doing almost exactly as you are considering, taking only the work offering skills of interest while putting my education into my own hands during "off-time"
Nobody is more qualified than you are to determine your direction, but I will add this:
I regret nothing.
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Why would I spend a year of my time and LOTS of money to learn about Descartes first, when all I wanted to study were the Classical Greeks?
You've hit the nail on it's head!
Man, you feel me, and you've pushed me even deeper towards my consideration... Good reply!
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Yes, you're right. Current education really sucks! I don't know much about other places but in India it's creating humans who will be at sixes and sevens about what to do! I would also comment about the mindset of parents and educators from here. They both are on the same page that education does really provide a job instead of creating some form of better human beings. The books, the teachers, the schools all say in one tone that a student should study for some profession. Shame on the current education system!!
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My thoughts, but what do you mean with "sixes and sevens"?
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Confused..
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With uDemy, Coursera, Skillshare, LinkedIn Learning - I can't believe the price of college/education in general hasn't come down. I know virtual learning doesn't replace in person learning, but some of the stuff on these sites is pretty damn good.
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We don't require current schools and colleges. We should go back to 'Gurukul' times.
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Modern education is beyond terrible.
Fortunately it doesn’t matter because IQ is more important
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what i dont buy in modern education is placing different kids with different learning abilities other one room taking this same exams. Students with different learning styles or special needs might find it challenging to thrive in a standardized system. modern education does not prepare for the cruelty and reality for the real world
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"Here comes the Cookie-Cutter..."
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Actually, you can find a lot of older books on these topics, and they hold a wealth of information. Some of it can be a bit dated, though. My father made me read a lot about psychology and human behavior when I was younger. He said that was missing out of the public school curriculum.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 27 Jun
Tradies do very well in Australia, but there's also a 3-4 year path to getting a valid certificate for that too.
Once the money problem is more or less solved you're free to learn whatever you like.
Teaching something you specialize in might be a good way to earn money (in terms of payment/time) and spend the rest of your time learning.
Most here might agree that saving in bitcoin helps too.
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Australia is a continent I'll probably never set foot on, but yeah, trades are in dire need for people where I live as well.
The difference is, that with "hands-on" jobs, you can combine theory and practice and be paid for doing so, at least that's possible where I live. Moreover, you're actually learning and doing things you're going to need, not a bunch of extra's you'll forget the second you get your paper.
In regards to Bitcoin, no worries. 🌞
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When I start to complain about education I usually stop myself and correct what I mean. Education always has value and doesn't suck at all. What does such is the schooling system including so called higher education (Universities). In most fields from what I have seen the main value of university is the degree. The certification. There is value as an employer and even as a customer of a provider of services to know that an organization or collective has vetted something in an area of expertise.
But simply having that piece of paper doesn't IMO mean someone is educated. Nor does not having that paper mean they are uneducated. In many fields certification is required. The modern education systems in the US at least are a mess.
That said, today is a golden age of learning and education. Never before in human history has there been more access to more knowledge. Much of it is free and if you do have some money you can get even higher quality content to study. That said just knowing things isn't enough for many fields. There needs to be some second outside entity to confirm a level of competence. That I think is where the biggest room for improvement lies.
Many of us went through years of what we might now think of as wasted money, time, and effort to get a degree. Its pretty common. The mistake most make is not counting the cost before hand. How much time and money is this going to cost me vs. what I will get at the end. I don't regret the path I took really. Sure, I was super frustrated with it at the time and even today but it was a few years and I paid off my debts. I could have took a different path but I'm not sure where that would have led me.
I recommend people do the math on the field they are entering. Does the math make sense? But even before that try to get some exposure to what the field is actually like. Try to connect with older people experienced in the field. Even just take them for a cup of coffee. I've done this for people interested in going into software several times. You may find out it is not for you. Or, you may realize that it is worth grinding through these stupid classes to check a box.
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Yep, you've worded some parts better- I'm not saying education is bad per se, its the path they're trying to put down one's throat that I hate.
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Hmm. It's hard for me to comment without knowing what specific field you're studying, what you're being taught, and how.
But from some of the fields you listed--psychology, human behavior, culture, health, and diet--these are fields that (in my opinion) have the highest rate of being filled with pseudo-intellectual charlatans. People who don't know and can't teach any universal truths, and thus can only tell you how to replicate the ways they do their job, which more often than not is a job which wouldn't exist in the free market, and is mostly only supportable by government largesse, and thus contributes little to real human flourishing.
Maybe your dissatisfaction arises from the educators in these fields, and not in modern education specifically. I wonder if you'd find more fulfillment trying to pursue a more disciplined field like mathematics, physics, computer science, or economics.
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It's the "requirements" that put me off, besides... Which profession would you call a contributor to "human flourishing"? You've listed some of which I think you'd call them that, but what would you pick for the "lower education"-segment?
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As they say in my country, knowledge does not take up space
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