Sold my first Magma channel yesterday... Highly Recommended! \ stacker news ~lightning

Sold my first Magma channel yesterday... Highly Recommended!

1986 sats \ 40 comments \ @jasonb 26 Jun lightning

I've been buying Magma channels for maybe a year or so now, but yesterday I finally sold my first one. I run a remote lightning node to be self-sovereign, not for routing fees and what-not. HOWEVER...this one transaction did, in my case, pay for everything I've invested into my node! I'm not including hardware here, which I already had.

My total gross profit after on-chain and Amboss fees was about 10% of what I put in the channel, which I committed to keep open for a month. ...and unless I read something wrong, I can still use all the sats, charge routing fees (below an agreed-upon amount), and stay in good standing. I'm just committed to keeping the channel open. This kind of feels like free money, even though I know I'm providing a service for someone.

Probably most encouraging of all, I thought I had done something wrong at one point, reached out to the Amboss telegram group, and @jestopher was incredibly quick at addressing my concerns.

All this to say, if you're like me and have way way less than a whole coin in your node, I can testify that you can still make some sats selling a channel on Magma.

view all related items

221 sats \ 15 replies \ @nullcount 26 Jun

Almost every product from Amboss is designed to funnel information about your node to them so they can use that information to degrade the privacy of everyone else.

The only reason a central coordinator needs to exist to facilitate channel opens between peers is so that coordinator can rent-seek and collect a fee from you.

12 sats \ 13 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

I agree that I've revealed a lot about myself to Amboss, especially when they see this post and can even link that node to me here. I've heard other folks say that this degrades other people's privacy as well, but you might have to explain to me how that works. The buyer also agreed to dox themselves to Amboss and me. We all made this decision together and I'm happy to reveal my node to them in exchange for this service. I can totally understand why other folks might want to conceal their node's privacy and I'm all about fighting for that right for them. I, for example, certainly wouldn't even let Amboss node where I keep my node physically or where I keep some of my other funds. So yeah, there is definitely a personal privacy compromise that should be entered into open-eyed with anybody using this.

I don't know if its fair to call it rent-seeking though. I certainly wouldn't have found this particular channel buyer myself, so I'm happy to pay Amboss a fee for that service. They've actually still maintained their anonymity from me as well.

221 sats \ 12 replies \ @nullcount 26 Jun

It's possible that "buyer" was an Amboss sock-puppet. To Amboss, its a marketing expense, like a sign-up bonus. I don't know why anyone would pay 10% for inbound from any random node for just 1-month. There are much cheaper, better quality inbound, with longer terms. Why don't you try to reach out to that node and offer them liquidity outside of Magma? Both of you stand to save money by moving off platform.

Magma (they way you used it) isn't that harmful to other's privacy (just your own). However, Amboss' Hydro product is used to automate orders on Magma. Running Hydro doxxes your channel balances to Amboss. If Amboss knows your balances, they also know your peer's balance (for those channels your peers share with you).

Amboss published this paper last month which describes how they are attempting to "guess" the balance of any channel using machine learning models trained on the data their customers are feeding them.

Starve the beast. Boycott Amboss.

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @ambosstech 26 Jun

This is a lot of FUD to unpack!

We aren't creating fake orders on Magma; it pays out Bitcoin to sellers and that's simply not something we can afford as a small startup.

Hydro does not require sharing any channel information; it's simply a liquidity automation service for sovereign node operators. It could have just been called Auto Magma. The automation works best when there's liquidity information to inform channel opens, but that's optional and a conscious user choice.

Our ML research is used to inform better pathfinding and higher performance for lightning, just like giving better driving directions by using traffic data. Our predictions are not useful for exposing anything that is private; it's simply a more scalable tech than probing, which is invasive and damaging to network performance.

124 sats \ 2 replies \ @nullcount 26 Jun

Why does Hydro need to send ANY data to Amboss? Why can't everything run locally on the node?

More scalable probing == Less privacy for everyone

Maybe there's a reason current probing is damaging to performance.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @ambosstech 26 Jun

Local automation is already an available service through CLBOSS and LNDg. However, making good decisions about whom to connect to is stymied by only using data local to the node. This optimization problem is a better fit to centralized processing as we see with Waze/google/Amazon.

The only Hydro setting that requires data is inbound liquidity targets. Setting target inbound liquidity automations requires attesting to the current inbound liquidity, but it's just an attestation.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullcount 26 Jun

Local automation is already an available service through CLBOSS and LNDg

Just because nobody else was collecting data. Does not give excuse for someone to start collecting data.

Making good decisions about whom to connect to is [difficult]

No, its easy. Just open channels to who you need to pay the most. This strategy works amazing for pleb, business, and exchange nodes.

What's difficult is what you're trying to do: making good decisions FOR OTHER NODES about whom to connect to.

Making good decisions for others requires knowing more about them than they do. This is anti-privacy by definition.

10 sats \ 7 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

Hmmm, you've got a lot of good points here. I'd be curious if @jestopher or the Amboss team would be interested in rebuttal.

Glad to know that my Magma channel isn't doxing anybody else. Hydro already seemed too complicated for me, so I think I'll just leave that be for the reasons you mention, as well as my own sanity.

It also does kind of make sense at this point, that if I have the contact info for that other node, I should continue the agreement in the future with them independently. The thing is, and maybe this is why I still feel comfortable with the whole agreement, I still don't know how to get ahold of them. The node that I sold to doesn't have contact info on Amboss or 1ML (maybe I'm missing something). If they did, I'd probably prefer to cut out the middleman, but as it turns out, the middleman is providing them some privacy via anonymity from me in this scenario.

54 sats \ 4 replies \ @nullcount 26 Jun

Just know that by selling on Magma, you could end up opening a channel with a Hydro user that will snitch on you.

If the node has keysend enabled, you can send them sats with a message attached and hope they read it!

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

So this is just like sending to an LNURL, right? Woah! I feel more and more like I'm living in a sci-fi movie. Bitcoin is so mind-blowing.

Is there a guide somewhere you know of that explains keysend? This is as-of-yet above my head.

123 sats \ 2 replies \ @nullcount 26 Jun

Keysend is an option in lnd.conf I recommend to enable it if you like free sats.

https://docs.lightning.engineering/lightning-network-tools/lnd/send-messages-with-keysend

There is a nice UI in Thunderhub for sending keysend messages.

There's also this tool which sends a keysend to every node that can receive it. https://github.com/w3irdrobot/Satogram

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

OK, so it looks like I already have it enabled. Thanks for the heads up on this.

reply on another page

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

As it turns out, I do in fact like free sats. On it!

reply on another page

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @a5y 26 Jun

Hi Jason!

I'm thrilled to hear that you're enjoying using Magma and appreciate your service to the network! 🌋 I wanted to address some concerns and clarify a few points about our service, especially given the FUD you are getting from others.

Before Magma, buying and selling liquidity was already being handled through inefficient and time-consuming means like Telegram and Twitter. Magma has transformed this process by allowing users to transparently view liquidity prices, seller reputations, and more. Importantly, our payment infrastructure ensures that sellers are only paid after the channel has been successfully opened. This means buyers don't need to trust that sellers will open a channel!

While you're free to sell directly to buyers, there is a reason why Magma became so popular compared to other methods.

Regarding Hydro, it's primarily designed for liquidity buyers, but sellers on Magma automatically contribute to the liquidity pool. This means that as a Magma seller you can get connected with more businesses seeking liquidity!

Hydro offers various management plans tailored to different business needs. Some plans require additional data for optimized decision-making, but we also offer automation plans that use solely public information. The results won't be as optimal but the option is still there.

Lastly, we as a company don't buy liquidity from other sellers on the market 😂 Definitely a new addition to the normal FUD we see!

Thanks again for using Magma and hope you continue enjoying it!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

Lastly, we as a company don't buy liquidity from other sellers on the market

Yeah, I should have probably clarified that this was NOT one of the good points the critic brought up. I kind of dismissed it and forgot given that it’s an accusation based on conjecture and not something you could even refute.

Mostly what concerned me personally, and I had heard you accused of before, is the idea of compromising privacy. It’s good to hear that you take that seriously. My biggest concern would have been compromising other people’s privacy, which it seems like is not on anyone’s radar as a possibility in this instance.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 27 Jun

Exactly bait! BOYCOTT AMBOSS ! They are no longer Bitcoin friends, they became the enemy of Bitcoin.

32 sats \ 1 reply \ @IamSINGLE 27 Jun

When you could realise the potential breach in privacy, why did you go on with this?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 27 Jun

Because it wasn't specific privacy that I minded divulging. My fear, after hearing nullcount, was that maybe I was giving up information on other nodes that I was connected to. It sounds like even nullcount would agree that this wasn't the case. Even though the payout was relatively small, the info I gave up was worth it for me because it wasn't sensitive for me.

71 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 26 Jun

Selling channels on magma is great! I sold many of channels grow the network!!!

31 sats \ 5 replies \ @Catcher 26 Jun

Hi, well googling does not show much info so maybe you can elaborate on this process?

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

Yeah, if you go to amboss.space, they have a service called Magma, in which they connect people that want inbound liquidity with folks who have some onchain sats that they want to put on the lightning network.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Catcher 26 Jun

Got it, thanks, are you a "node runner"subscriber? Cause it seems you can not create offers if you are not a subscriber..

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

I'm not. I think you need to do that to make more than a certain amount of offers, but I was able to do it just signing in with my node. They took a cut from the fee I charged the buyer, but I've never signed up for their subscription services. So you do have to dox your node to them though.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @ambosstech 26 Jun

No subscription is required to post an offer on Magma; anyone that runs a node can use the service.

No "doxxing" is needed; you simply have to prove node ownership by digitally signing a message.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @Catcher 27 Jun

It looks like I need to enable notifications to make it work, and I have trouble linking my tg account, and for email you need to upgrade. You need to add notifications via nostr =))

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @BitcoinAbhi 27 Jun

Congratulations for your 10% gain bro! But at the sake of privacy, I wouldn't have done it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 27 Jun

Maybe check out my response to @IamSINGLE below for my personal explanation in this case.

Also, the 10% was a typo. I only realized this this morning, and maybe that's created some confusion in this post. It was actually only 1%, but it was still worth it.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @MiddleWay 26 Jun

I sold 3 channels, until Amboss hiked their fee x10 from 1,000 ppm to 10,000 ppm last week. Bait and switch ((

71 sats \ 0 replies \ @ambosstech 26 Jun

We implemented a big change and are keen to hear feedback! The fee for Hydro is now down to 0.2% which flipped the business model to make Hydro liquidity automation a more cost effective option.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @kilianbuhn 26 Jun

Hmm, a topic I have never heard about. Can you guide me to resources about this? 🧐

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

Yeah, if you go to amboss.space, they have a service called Magma, in which they connect people that want inbound liquidity with folks who have some on-chain sats that they want to put on the lightning network.

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @grayruby 26 Jun

Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, how big was the channel you sold? It's ok if you don't want to answer.

50 sats \ 3 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

Nice try, fed! haha Actually, check out my response to @nullcount here in a second. I realize that I've totally doxed myself to Amboss, but I don't want to make my node all that publicly known.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby 26 Jun

I get it.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun

I will say that it's by far my biggest channel, but it's also far less than some people have earned just posting on stacker news.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 26 Jun

Gotcha.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Akg10s33 26 Jun

Oh!! It is excellent information 👍

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatsMate 27 Jun

Who are the majority of buyers for these channels? Why don't they just spin up their own channels?

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 27 Jun

Look into the concept of inbound liquidity...

In short, if you open a channel yourself, all sats will be on your side of the channel. You can thus transfer sats from your channel to someone else's. However, as a business for instance, more often than not, you want people to be able to send sats to you. For that, you need channels where the sats are on the other side of the channel, i.e. in-bound liquidity...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @NaOD 27 Jun outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.