12 sats \ 13 replies \ @jasonb OP 26 Jun \ parent \ on: Sold my first Magma channel yesterday... Highly Recommended! lightning
I agree that I've revealed a lot about myself to Amboss, especially when they see this post and can even link that node to me here. I've heard other folks say that this degrades other people's privacy as well, but you might have to explain to me how that works. The buyer also agreed to dox themselves to Amboss and me. We all made this decision together and I'm happy to reveal my node to them in exchange for this service. I can totally understand why other folks might want to conceal their node's privacy and I'm all about fighting for that right for them. I, for example, certainly wouldn't even let Amboss node where I keep my node physically or where I keep some of my other funds. So yeah, there is definitely a personal privacy compromise that should be entered into open-eyed with anybody using this.
I don't know if its fair to call it rent-seeking though. I certainly wouldn't have found this particular channel buyer myself, so I'm happy to pay Amboss a fee for that service. They've actually still maintained their anonymity from me as well.
It's possible that "buyer" was an Amboss sock-puppet. To Amboss, its a marketing expense, like a sign-up bonus. I don't know why anyone would pay 10% for inbound from any random node for just 1-month. There are much cheaper, better quality inbound, with longer terms. Why don't you try to reach out to that node and offer them liquidity outside of Magma? Both of you stand to save money by moving off platform.
Magma (they way you used it) isn't that harmful to other's privacy (just your own). However, Amboss' Hydro product is used to automate orders on Magma. Running Hydro doxxes your channel balances to Amboss. If Amboss knows your balances, they also know your peer's balance (for those channels your peers share with you).
Amboss published this paper last month which describes how they are attempting to "guess" the balance of any channel using machine learning models trained on the data their customers are feeding them.
Starve the beast. Boycott Amboss.
reply
This is a lot of FUD to unpack!
We aren't creating fake orders on Magma; it pays out Bitcoin to sellers and that's simply not something we can afford as a small startup.
Hydro does not require sharing any channel information; it's simply a liquidity automation service for sovereign node operators. It could have just been called Auto Magma. The automation works best when there's liquidity information to inform channel opens, but that's optional and a conscious user choice.
Our ML research is used to inform better pathfinding and higher performance for lightning, just like giving better driving directions by using traffic data. Our predictions are not useful for exposing anything that is private; it's simply a more scalable tech than probing, which is invasive and damaging to network performance.
reply
Why does Hydro need to send ANY data to Amboss? Why can't everything run locally on the node?
More scalable probing == Less privacy for everyone
Maybe there's a reason current probing is damaging to performance.
reply
Local automation is already an available service through CLBOSS and LNDg. However, making good decisions about whom to connect to is stymied by only using data local to the node. This optimization problem is a better fit to centralized processing as we see with Waze/google/Amazon.
The only Hydro setting that requires data is inbound liquidity targets. Setting target inbound liquidity automations requires attesting to the current inbound liquidity, but it's just an attestation.
reply
Local automation is already an available service through CLBOSS and LNDg
Just because nobody else was collecting data. Does not give excuse for someone to start collecting data.
Making good decisions about whom to connect to is [difficult]
No, its easy. Just open channels to who you need to pay the most. This strategy works amazing for pleb, business, and exchange nodes.
What's difficult is what you're trying to do: making good decisions FOR OTHER NODES about whom to connect to.
Making good decisions for others requires knowing more about them than they do. This is anti-privacy by definition.
reply
Hmmm, you've got a lot of good points here. I'd be curious if @jestopher or the Amboss team would be interested in rebuttal.
Glad to know that my Magma channel isn't doxing anybody else. Hydro already seemed too complicated for me, so I think I'll just leave that be for the reasons you mention, as well as my own sanity.
It also does kind of make sense at this point, that if I have the contact info for that other node, I should continue the agreement in the future with them independently. The thing is, and maybe this is why I still feel comfortable with the whole agreement, I still don't know how to get ahold of them. The node that I sold to doesn't have contact info on Amboss or 1ML (maybe I'm missing something). If they did, I'd probably prefer to cut out the middleman, but as it turns out, the middleman is providing them some privacy via anonymity from me in this scenario.
reply
Just know that by selling on Magma, you could end up opening a channel with a Hydro user that will snitch on you.
If the node has keysend enabled, you can send them sats with a message attached and hope they read it!
reply
So this is just like sending to an LNURL, right? Woah! I feel more and more like I'm living in a sci-fi movie. Bitcoin is so mind-blowing.
Is there a guide somewhere you know of that explains keysend? This is as-of-yet above my head.
reply
Keysend is an option in lnd.conf
I recommend to enable it if you like free sats.
There is a nice UI in Thunderhub for sending keysend messages.
There's also this tool which sends a keysend to every node that can receive it.
https://github.com/w3irdrobot/Satogram
reply
OK, so it looks like I already have it enabled. Thanks for the heads up on this.
reply
As it turns out, I do in fact like free sats. On it!
reply
Hi Jason!
I'm thrilled to hear that you're enjoying using Magma and appreciate your service to the network! 🌋 I wanted to address some concerns and clarify a few points about our service, especially given the FUD you are getting from others.
Before Magma, buying and selling liquidity was already being handled through inefficient and time-consuming means like Telegram and Twitter. Magma has transformed this process by allowing users to transparently view liquidity prices, seller reputations, and more. Importantly, our payment infrastructure ensures that sellers are only paid after the channel has been successfully opened. This means buyers don't need to trust that sellers will open a channel!
While you're free to sell directly to buyers, there is a reason why Magma became so popular compared to other methods.
Regarding Hydro, it's primarily designed for liquidity buyers, but sellers on Magma automatically contribute to the liquidity pool. This means that as a Magma seller you can get connected with more businesses seeking liquidity!
Hydro offers various management plans tailored to different business needs. Some plans require additional data for optimized decision-making, but we also offer automation plans that use solely public information. The results won't be as optimal but the option is still there.
Lastly, we as a company don't buy liquidity from other sellers on the market 😂 Definitely a new addition to the normal FUD we see!
Thanks again for using Magma and hope you continue enjoying it!
reply
Lastly, we as a company don't buy liquidity from other sellers on the market
Yeah, I should have probably clarified that this was NOT one of the good points the critic brought up. I kind of dismissed it and forgot given that it’s an accusation based on conjecture and not something you could even refute.
Mostly what concerned me personally, and I had heard you accused of before, is the idea of compromising privacy. It’s good to hear that you take that seriously. My biggest concern would have been compromising other people’s privacy, which it seems like is not on anyone’s radar as a possibility in this instance.
reply