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That's because the police aren't trained adequately. Any high school drop out can join the police fire a couple rounds at a target and be sent out in a car.
That's not training. They've never done any real threat assessment training let alone any fibua training considering their normal place of work could be some mall.
When it comes to 9mm I'm thinking 2.7x9mm small rounds designed to be non lethal not big slugs designed to put holes in walls and am coming at it from that standpoint. The standpoint that what should be commercially available to civilians shouldn't be "lethal rounds"
Glock 17 is 9mm and popular with law enforcement
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Then I'd argue they're being issued the wrong tool for the job they're expected to do. They don't need to use lethal force to neutralise an aggressor.
If and when a situation escalates to the point in which lethal force may be required... That's when you have specialists. Your average cop isn't trained for those situations, so you shouldn't be giving untrained people the wrong tools for the job.
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Military experience does not make you an expert on law enforcement or criminology
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I'm not trying to claim it does. I'm just saying that in the situations you've described, they should be handled by highly trained individuals not some average desk cop.
Criminals in USA are more violent and dangerous than criminals in Europe or UK
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @joda OP 13 Feb
Well, we are better at most things.
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lol You’re terrible!
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Violent people are violent people. If they didn't have access to those kinds of tools the fallout would be much less. To suggest that American criminals are somehow more dangerous than any other nation is just untrue.
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The comparison was USA vs UK vs Europe
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It’s not the tool. You’re implying guns make people more violent. During the civil war in Rwanda in 1994, millions were killed via machete. September 11 victims were killed via airline jet.
Cause is not the tool but the person holding the tool
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I'm not implying guns make people more violent at all. I'm saying that guns dramatically increase the detrimental outcomes of violent people. As do knives for that matter. What do you need a machete for, you're not living in an area of thick rainforest, so it's impractical to own one.
If someone didn't have a weapon they'd be less likely to be able to cause as much harm.
I agree it's not only the tool, it's the person holding that tool. So don't give them that tool so freely? I have a zero chance of killing anyone with a gun, when I don't have a gun in my hands, that chance increases the moment you hold one. Certain people shouldn't have access to guns, or machetes (which are still crazy unnecessary in any of the areas listed above)
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How do you determine fitness or eligibility?
Felons cannot vote or own a gun in USA. The problem is felons tend to ignore gun laws.
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Felons tend to ignore most laws. If they're going to break into my house and attempt to steal a gun, then they aren't going to get one. But should they break into yours, then they could walk out of there with a gun. The simple fact that one was available increases the chance that it does fall into the wrong hands. How many stories do you hear of children shooting their parents by accident? No gun no shooting accident.
As for fitness and eligibility. There are some measures in which you could feasibly employ to prevent the wrong people being able to lawfully acquire those weapons. Such as much more stringent vetting. Example not just anyone can go and work in the nuclear industry, they vet you thoroughly. Yes it's a long and expensive process, but perhaps more stringent vetting would help towards limiting gun ownership to a group of people who understand the responsibility they have as gun owners and not people who refer to guns as "gats" and hold their pistols sideways. They don't have the maturity required to own a gun as I'm sure you'd agree.
I personally believe weapons education would be far far more effective as a form of gun control than the ideas that are synonymous with the phrase gun control. I'm not calling for a ban on guns, I'm calling for a way in which to prevent the wrong people getting the wrong weapons.
The problem is then about trying to mitigate those same wrong people from unlawfully acquiring those weapons and if a weapon is in a home and the home owners not there... Then they can feasibly force access and steal that weapon.
Just an idea but perhaps secure community locations for storage, like a community armoury of some fashion? You want access to your gun for sport, go and check it out use it and check it back into a secure armoury, where it will be kept secure preventing the possibility of someone breaking into your home for a weapon that's not there. You could argue that that just provides one singular place for them to target... But I feel a community armoury would and should have much much higher level of security than the average persons home.
Japan has almost zero violent crime
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Japan has a vastly different culture to the US.
If some of the US populace took respect lessons from Japan, they'd have a lot less violent crime too.
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It’s not only culture.
Japan is homogeneous and high IQ country.
Japan is not a diverse melting pot
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Are you implying that the US has a lower IQ than Japan?
You're right it's not really a diverse mix of cultures so let's look back at the UK again. Do shootings occur? Yes. But they're are much much rarer than in the US because guns are not easily accessible. If you can't get a gun you can't do any shooting.
I would like to clarify, I'm not anti gun, I actually think you should be allowed to own whatever you choose to own within a framework of reason. And I can't see it as reasonable that an untrained civilian needs access to high end weaponry. The only modicum of anti gun I have is that I am anti the wrong people having the wrong guns.
Children as an example should not have guns, they should also not have access to their parents guns. And I don't mean "Timmy you're not allowed to touch that" I mean physically incapable of opening the locked container that stores the weapon. Although you have listed unhinged adults with severe mental issues as problems with shootings there is also the undeniable issue that children are taking their parents guns to school with them and doing the shootings themselves. That can't be allowed to happen.
I'm pro responsible gun ownership and I unfortunately believe that there is a large majority of the US population who are unfit to own weapons, despite what rights they may believe they're entitled to.
That would definitely be non-lethal
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So why is that not the absolute default? Non lethal rounds, it's called law enforcement not law, skip trial and execute. You don't need to use lethal force to neutralise an aggressor.
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In the US, anyway, employing any firearm in the encounter is considered using deadly force…whether it kills or not. Doesn’t matter if you use a pink AR-15 or a ma deuce.
Non lethal is OK in a few situations, but not as a primary defensive tool.
Civilians and law enforcement both need the option of deadly force. If the threat is wearing explosives, armed, etc…do you think the people at Charlie Hebdo just failed to de-escalate?
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These are the not the normal types of daily situations.
Civilians don't want to end up in that situation, that's not a failure to de-escalate that's a failure to call in the right people. Those situations should be handled by professionals not some cop or a well meaning civvie.
My thoughts are that civilians in most (and yes there are extremes) circumstances either non lethal force would be sufficient or they're in over their heads and should find someplace else to be.
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Option of deadly force = truth
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This is the “shoot him in the leg” strategy advocated by progressives.
Have you seen the movie Heat (1995)? There is a bank robber scene that degenerates into a shoot out like the ok corral.
That scene was the inspiration for a similar shoot out in 1997 in Los Angeles.
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No I’m probably the only person that hasn’t seen Heat. I do remember the north Hollywood shootout. Demonstrated that shotguns are woefully underpowered for incapacitating anyone, especially if armored.
Now everyone has ceramic plates, so even 7.62 isn’t gonna do much without tungsten carbide AP. 8.6 blackout shows some promise for armor penetration though, I have yet to see a test.
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I meant to direct the bank shoot out question to @Public_N_M_E as an example of when law enforcement needs a lethal option. If are trying to kill you, a lethal weapon is necessary
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That is an example of an extreme event. These aren't common occurrences, and law enforcement isn't qualified to handle that. You call in professionals for that. Same as hostage situations. The issue isn't that not having the right guns in that situation was the problem. The problem was not having the right people with the right tools.
Where non lethal force is no longer enough... As a civilian you should no longer be involved. That's time to call in professionals. Those professionals are not average law enforcement.
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