How quickly would society spiral into chaos, and how quickly would we recover?
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261 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
Interesting thought experiment. I don't think it will happen this way though. More likely is that the voting numbers continue to decline but we never get even close to zero. What is happening is more and more people realizing their vote doesn't matter but they still do it. Basically disenfranchisement. If you think my vote and your vote are twice the value of Bill Gate's vote you are fooling yourself. I don't vote because I don't believe in the system. It started with realizing my vote didn't matter or make a difference. I look at it like this. As a parent that wants to give my kids a choice I offer them two or more choice but all of which are ones I am ok with. This is basically the US form of democracy. It is rare that anyone gets into office that isn't approved by the elites (for good or ill). I would argue that Trump is the exception and they did their best to contain him. I think they did a pretty good job of doing so.
Our biggest issue in the west is the illusion of choice, not the decline of democracy. We think we are more free than we are. We are trained to focus on things outside of our control and ignore things within our control. Invest in yourself. Vote or don't. I don't care, but I do want to see more people focus on solutions in their own lives, families, and local communities/neighborhoods.
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46 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
Gotta mention Democracy: The God That Failed. Does a great job of actually pushing back on the near insane lack of criticism of the system we are all supposed to believe in. I say believe in because it seems like the secular religion to me. Even if you are a big supporter of democracy this is a good book to read if you wanna understand where people are coming from in their opposing views.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 1 Aug 2023
I'll check out the book, thanks for the rec. I've appreciated your perspective in the past even though we seem to disagree on fundamental things.
Including on this topic. It boggles my mind, honestly, that people have the attitude you express. There are so many things that very tangibly matter based on who wins elections, and who wins elections is a function of who gets voted for.
You say your vote doesn't matter as much as Bill Gates's. That's wrong, obviously. What is true, and probably what you mean, is that your opinion doesn't matter as much as Gates's; and there's nothing on Earth that will ever make that not true. A bitcoin standard will not budge that truth in the slightest bit. The rich and powerful have always shaken the world, since the dawn of man, and always will. My guess is that that is what people are reacting to, but they're reacting in the wrong place. You could plausibly change who is rich and powerful, and then you'll get to deal with their shit. My guess is that you won't like it much better, unless it happens to be you.
The other thing I think people are reacting to is just properties of systems. They look at the current system and shake their fists at it. But really, systems are their own animals. If you're waiting for a system that will have no unpalatable consequences you'll be waiting forever.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 31 Jul 2023
thanks for sharing this
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @mudbloodvonfrei 31 Jul 2023
I think I've seen this book mentioned 'round these parts. Maybe by you :-). I'll add it to my list.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
Well worth your time IMO.
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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
One other caveat I should add. I am not opposed to voting. I would guess most people that don't vote or are opposed to voting in elections are not either. I don't support our system and how it works. If I were on a board for a company or had a small group of community members that worked together I would vote or use some sort of voting system. Voting isn't the issue. The issue is the systems under which people are voting. When you get down to it, are "your representatives" actually working for you? Of course not. If people could opt out of the system, taxes, rules, etc and adopt different ones that would represent choice and voting could be a part of that. Voluntarism.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 31 Jul 2023
Local politics should be more important than national politics. I don't think it mattered all that much who the president was in 1890. As the returns on violence grew over the past century, so did the reach of the federal government.
I do think voting is important but I try to vote in a way that would theoretically decrease that importance. I'm much more concerned with which powers we delegate to the government than with who runs it. You're right about Bill Gates being more powerful than you and me combined, but that's not due to any genius on his part as much as him benefiting more from government distortion of free markets.
I don't view democracy as a primary value. For me it's a derivative of my God-given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A king would be much more efficient at preserving my rights, but democracy is the best risk-adjusted method since a king could easily violate my rights.
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156 sats \ 4 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 31 Jul 2023
Someone is going to vote. In fact, the more people decide that they won't participate the more power accrues to those who do participate. Take your meme as the perfect example; the last guy voting is the only thing between the politician and a horrible death. He will have the politician by the balls, and thus will be his sole boss. Which is the reason why the second-to-last guy actually won't leave, and the third-to-last, etc.
So in short, it's a trick question. There will never be an incentive for all people to not vote. The more people refuse to vote, the greater the incentive to vote. Till you reach an equilibrium.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @sudonaka 31 Jul 2023
Voting doesn’t do anything. The problem is that power corrupts and all empires eventually fall. Liberty reigns only as long as the people can resist the siren song of state sponsored “help”
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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 31 Jul 2023
I agree about resisting the siren song of state help, but that doesn't mean there is no function for the state. And, voting definitely does something. The problem is when people put democracy on a pedestal and expect it to solve all problems (like poverty, education, etc) and are inevitably disappointed.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinosphere 1 Aug 2023
"The more power accrues to those who do participate"*****
***** = In that sucky old system that most people are avoiding.
You make it sound like the current govt is the only thing keeping this ship afloat.
No, the fact is that this ship floats DESPITE that sucky govt trying to sink it 24/7.
While a few will stay and try to keep the (now tiny) system that works for them going, the rest of us will have moved on to something new & better.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @scottathan 3 Aug 2023
You correct that in any scenario there will inevitably be those who stay with the current system regardless of what the masses do. However, the point @mudbloodvonfrei is making isn't that the current system is great or essential so much that a situation in which everyone stops voting is never going to occur from a game theory standpoint so long as a government exists.
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204 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
If you haven't read "The Sovereign Individual" I'd recommend that as it does give some context about how existing systems fade over time and then are replaced. The Roman Catholic Church rule over the west for example.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @birdeye21 OP 31 Jul 2023
that book is prophetic
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
There are many items in the book that had me shaking my head thinking, wow these guys saw this coming. For sure.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @mudbloodvonfrei 31 Jul 2023
Brilliant book in terms of it's analysis of the factors that affect balance of power between people and government, but I also think a lot of bitcoiners read too deeply into some of the ideas. I also think many of the predictions of the future are predicated on some vague notion that we will exist in cyberspace.
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 31 Jul 2023
Yeah, I for sure do not believe it is a good predictor of the future but it makes you think about a few ways things could happen. I like things that make me think in new ways.
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99 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 31 Jul 2023
Who's the "we" in that question? If it's the audience of this post, then absolutely nothing would change. If it's literally everyone (even the candidates don't vote for themselves), then there are appointment rules for vacant seats.
I don't know how much it would accelerate collapse and recovery.
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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @birdeye21 OP 31 Jul 2023
was referring to the latter here
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92 sats \ 0 replies \ @proeu 31 Jul 2023
Those who did not vote were the most crucial in determining 2016 Presidential Elections in USA
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17 sats \ 0 replies \ @IgnaciobTato 1 Aug 2023
Recently we had elections in a town of Argentina where there was only 1 candidate as major of the town. However the blank votes were more than his votes and therefore he lost the elections.
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17 sats \ 0 replies \ @l0k18 1 Aug 2023
This was how Apartheid ended.
Mathematical fact is that only swing voters affect the election.
If they already know how you are going to vote, you don't matter.
Not voting is actually a vote of no confidence in the election process. So it does eventually lead to real change.
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7 sats \ 0 replies \ @mallardshead 1 Aug 2023
Fantastic meme. First time I've seen it. Are we talking about presidential elections? Ostensibly, the campaign money would dry up and political prestige would take an enormous hit. Ultimately presidential elections would be decided by Congress, who I happen to believe should decide [presidential] elections to begin with. This election brings out the absolute worst in people. In they're current form, they're enormous wastes of time, productivity, and money. State reps make half the Federal government to begin with, and have a bigger impact on your day to day lives. State/local elections could use more voter involvement.
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7 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinosphere 1 Aug 2023
Why would we spiral into chaos? Is that what hollywood told you?
If people were actually wise enough to come to the conclusion that voting is nothing but giving permission to some assholes to enslave you, then they'd be wise enough to form a completely voluntary society based on the private sector & free market.
This is what Anarcho-Capitalism is all about. We know that if you just deleted those in power now a vacuum would form and the useful idiots would all just demand to be ruled by somebody new. That's why it takes education first so they don't want that anymore.
So I don't see it spiraling into chaos by any means. If they somehow voted all 'the bums out' then they'd simply want new bums, and hold emergency elections to get them.
But if it's like you say, everyone refused to vote, then they came to the (obvious, IMHO) conclusion that voting is bad because having rulers is bad. This would be every anarchist's dream come true.
Civilization would finally begin to flourish in a way that you can't even conceive right now. No regulations, no bureaucracy, no bad laws, no bad cops, nothing at all to make life harder on you than it would be in nature.
For those looking to learn more about this extremely-well-explored field of thought, I recommend starting with Larkin Rose videos on YouTube, and then graduating to of the many many many books on anarchocapitalism at Mises.org, like the Machinery of Freedom or basically anything written by Rothbard.
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7 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats 1 Aug 2023
I tried it, nothing happened to me or country :)
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @021da48107 1 Aug 2023
The biggest group in the 2020 presidential election were people who did not vote. My take away from that is that most people in the US don't want anything to do with the political system.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jerrywilliampolley 1 Aug 2023
file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/91/01/7ECADD75-DE54-44E8-A8AA-ACB34EE9F8A4/FC2F5371043C48FDD95AEDE7B8A49624_Springmeier.-.Bloodlines.of.the.Illuminati.R.pdf
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jerrywilliampolley 1 Aug 2023
Our votes don’t count anyway, however in my opinion every event our government advertises to us is a survey to see how many of us still need to be parented ( taken advantage of, in the most disrespectful way imaginable) so they know what event to sell us next!!! I suppose they would know that good has prevailed over evil in way of a collective realization that we don’t need them, we don’t want them, we are aware that they are not who they appear to be, and we know there promises are hollow, and only set up the stage for more hollow promises. In short they would do something deceitful to force back into the corner like create a pandemic, light forest fires, have us believe the middles from North Korea are getting closer and closer, that Russia and china are going to take over, and aliens are going to attack to force our need for there protection. I think a better question is what if everyone quit working for the corporations at the same time, and everyone pulled all of there money from the banks and ripped up there credit cards on the same day. Followed by refusing to pay rent, etc. I think the outcome would be very sad, I think the destruction, death, pain, suffering they would deliver would come without any care or remorse, because they are pure evil. They already know the amount of damage our world can sustain and the time it would take to heal. They are very prepared to do the wrong thing when we try to do the right thing.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ceife 1 Aug 2023
My opinion: The speed at which society could spiral into chaos and recover depends on numerous complex and unpredictable factors such as the cause of chaos, the resilience of the affected society, and the response from government and community efforts. Generally, societies can face challenges and recover at different rates, ranging from days to years or even longer. Building strong social systems, preparedness, and cooperation can help mitigate the impact and speed up recovery in times of crises.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ge 1 Aug 2023
The dead would still vote 🤣🤣🤣
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mallardshead 1 Aug 2023
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