In a comment on one of my recent posts (#1435164), @Solomonsatoshi said:
It is a social media platform intentionally created to enable a P2P V4V BTC denominated community.
When I first started using Stacker News, I made the same mistake: I assumed it was about P2P V4V. I posted things here and earned sats and pulled them off the platform. I zapped people too, but I treated it as a value for value platform. It took me a while of using Stacker News to realize that while this may be what attracts people to SN, but it's not actually the value proposition.
As I understand it, Stacker News is about making money the moderator. Social media is full of bad incentives. SN is the first time I've encountered social media that really aligns the incentives of all the people involved.
Prior to SN, social media always involved an algorithm or moderators or kyc. We've all experienced the awful side of these things. I've been banned from Reddit more times than I can count. I used to be good at X, but then one day all my posts just fell into a void and nobody ever saw them again. I tried to post about SN on hacker.news and my post was immediately flagged. These kinds of experiences leave normal users feeling like shit. It's deeply disatisfying.
Stacker News is trying something new: can we get rid of algorithms and moderators and only use the signal generated by the stackers themselves? Before bitcoin and lightning, this was impossible, but because we now have internet-native micropayments, we can ask users to provide real signal and it works because it's costly.
Yes, a big part of that is attaching a LN wallet -- and frankly it seems to me like you would be happier with a platform that only allows users who have connected a lightning wallet: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about such a platform -- however, our current reality is that many people do not use Lightning.
Regardless, I believe you are misguided in your belief that SN users who do not attach wallets (or who hide their status) are hypocrites. We aren't here for V4V. We aren't here to give value to each other -- that's really a side effect. What's happening here is about using sats to mediate our online interactions so that we have better online interactions. And I believe this works whether a user has attached a Lightning wallet or not.
So, I want to thank you for the sats you spent on downzapping these last weeks (I assume you have been the primary downzapper). If SN is really going to pioneer a path of social media that doesn't need human moderators, we absolutely have to get the downzapping piece right -- and your campaign is an excellent stress test.
If the only moderator here is going to be money, we need people who are willing to put their money where their mouth is and you have done that...as has every other user on Stacker News.
'As I understand it, Stacker News is about making money the moderator.'
Making money the moderator is an integral part of the whole idea of V4V.
So your argument that V4V is not an integral part of the SNs project is invalid.
~
Another important aspect you do not address is the sats denominated aspect of the SNs V4V proposition.
I came here initially attracted by the opportunity to participate in and experience a V4V social media that is denominated in sats.
It had been talked about before but never built- so great to see it and try it.
It was 100% denominated in sats when I arrived here- but then the creeping threat of regulatory pressure- even prosecution from US government agencies forced the introduction of CCs and the option of users attaching their LN wallets so we could still have P2P V4V sats denominated...and SNs platform could avoid the risk of prosecution on the pretext of money transmission.
Needing to attach LN wallets placed a higher burden on users- it requires them to attach LN wallets because of government Chokepoint style pressure.
But it has had upsides too- It forced me and most other regular users here to learn how to get and attach a LN wallet.
This system makes the overall SNs model even more P2P and more resilient.
Think of the number of LN transactions that are now made everyday via LN due to the adoption of attached wallets on Stacker News.
It has forced the wallets to increase capacity and liquidity.
Sometimes they still fail to keep up with the transaction volume growth but every transaction is paying fees and building a stronger network.
So for those of us who proclaim a serious interest in BTC and the LN growing stronger and becoming more useful and capable ~ attaching wallets has and does enable that.
Every time we zap P2P V4V LN gets stronger.
And yet, there are some here who think attaching wallets is too much of an effort- too unreliable, too inconvenient.
If they at the same time claim to be serious Bitcoiners and the content of their posts harps on about and promotes LN and BTC systems and technology development and adoption, I call BullShit & HypoCrit.
Walk the Talk!
' it seems to me like you would be happier with a platform that only allows users who have connected a lightning wallet: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about such a platform'
No -you have misread my position.
CCs are there for people who are not capable or interested to attach a LN wallet/s- that's fine by me. Bitcoin/LN should never be forced upon anyone imo.
If people are just here as newbies or casual users and not serious about or interested in Bitcoin / LN, ok- fine use CCs.
But if you claim to be serious about Bitcoin, LN and building the protocol and LN but can't be bothered enough to attach wallets, and proudly show that you have done this then I call Hypocrit.
BTW I appreciate the chance to discuss these issues as it is potentially more constructive than endless downzapping.
You are definitely right about this. I didn't really learn about lightning until I wanted to get on SN and start posting. It certainly motivated me to figure things out and get a wallet set up.
I also agree with this. I just think it is a side-effect of replacing mods and algos with sats. But it is still great and as you say it would be interesting to measure what percent of lightning transactions in a given day are due to SN.
I don't mind CCs as much as some people do. I know that some stackers left because of them. If there were no CCs, how would it change how you feel about attaching wallets? (just as an hypothetical: imagine if users didn't attach a wallet, any zaps they received went 100% to rewards. Of course, such users would still have to pay to post -- in this case would you still feel that users who talk about being Bitcoiners but don't attach wallets are being hypocrites?)
I really don't spend much time thinking about what people claim to feel about Bitcoin. I'm interested in the arguments they make. There are all kinds of weird dorks in bitcoin, many of them are great, some of them are horrendous -- but any of them might have interesting things to add to this permissionless protocol. So, I really wouldn't care much if Satoshi Nakamoto himself showed up and started telling everyone to buy MSTR. Bitcoin works because we all make our own minds up about what is reasonable (this is why we run nodes, no?). I don't really care if someone is a hypocrite, they might still be able to change my mind on something.
I still maintain, what matters most on SN are the words you post and the sats you zap/pay. The rest is less important to me.
Do you understand why CCs were introduced?
I explained above why-
-'I came here initially attracted by the opportunity to participate in and experience a V4V social media that is denominated in sats.
It had been talked about before but never built- so great to see it and try it.
It was 100% denominated in sats when I arrived here- but then the creeping threat of regulatory pressure- even prosecution from US government agencies forced the introduction of CCs and the option of users attaching their LN wallets so we could still have P2P V4V sats denominated...and SNs platform could avoid the risk of prosecution on the pretext of money transmission.
Needing to attach LN wallets placed a higher burden on users- it requires them to attach LN wallets because of government Chokepoint style pressure.'
I also explained I do not have a problem with newbies or people who simply don't care about Bitcoin and LN want to use CCs.
They should imo still be free to participate fully in the dialogue and community even if they are not Bitcoiners - Hopefully over time they might come to understand Bitcoins unique and valuable properties - but nobody should ever be forced to use BTC/LN.
The more different viewpoints SNs has contributing makes SNs more interesting and less of an echo chamber.
What I do object to is those who claim to be Bitcoiners and rabbit on about Bitcoin and how wonderful it is, but cant be bothered to make a small actual effort attach a LN and use here and thereby support the use of LN and sats denominated integrity of the platform.
People like @DarthCoin
They are blatant hypocrits.
They may present amusing, interesting and useful content, but all their content is sullied by their blatant hypocrisy. They are saying they want LN and BTC to develop and grow in strength but their inaction is working directly against that stated objective.
Their words are not matched by their actions.
It does not matter what proportion of the LN SNs zapping makes up- it may not be a large proportion, but if those who say they want LN to grow and develop cannot be bothered to attach wallets and support LN development it is absurd and blatant hypocrisy.
You say - 'I still maintain, what matters most on SN are the words you post and the sats you zap/pay. The rest is less important to me.'
I agree content is important but disagree that obvious hypocrits have credibility. They do not. They are saying one thing and doing another thing. All of their content is debased by their hypocrisy.
Also agree zapping sats is important- this is one of the few places we can use, test and support the LN everyday, sometimes many times a day!
But some, while claiming to be BTC Maxis are refusing to use the LN here, and are not zapping sats- they are zapping mostly shitcoin CCs which were only introduced as a compromise under regulatory pressure. They are hypocrits and are debasing the sats denominated nature of the platform.
Stacker News needs participants who come here and consume content contribute sats into the SNs economy. Or it will die. Those consumers of content are the suppliers of the energy required to grow both SNs and LN.
I come here for content, as a content consumer, with my attached LN wallets so I can pay for content and occasionally receive sats zaps from others. It is a pleasure to be able to use LN / sats in such a way knowing that it is growing the LN and doing precisely what The White paper set out to enable.
I have gained information and tips here of real value and consider it a worthwhile and mostly enjoyable expenditure of sats... better than any other social media platform I have known. far less spam and trash.
But it is a competitive marketplace and when I see content providers who claim to be serious bitcoiners 'living on The Bitcoin Standard' but cannot be bothered attaching sending wallets to enable a reciprocal sats denominated V4V P2P economy - they are saying they cannot be bothered to enable sending me or anyone else, sats - but they want my sats and those of consumers of their content...
I say No. All their content is compromised.
They are hypocrits.
I am not buying their content.
I may downzap their content.
The consumer has power.
That is free market forces operating.
Hey man, just a heads up that I think most of the downzaps you've suffered are from folks that simply think you've brought these issues up in the wrong places. I think most of those people never downzap just because they disagree with an argument. Or at least I don't. But I'm a pretty harsh downzapper of irrelevant material. Again, that might just be a difference of opinion of what we want sn to be. Anyway, food for thought...
As far as the downzaps you've made, I'm with @Scoresby. Bring 'em on! I can take it! haha
I suspect that any downzapping of my comments- and I am not even aware of any really to be honest but if it has happened then is probably from people who do not like what I am saying but cannot credibly refute it using reason and convincing argument.
Am only downzapping others after long trying to raise the issues i raise in a dialogue, only to be almost universally responded to with trolling, abuse and utter nonsense - all though consistently seeking to avoid and evade the issues raises.
I much prefer, always, to engage in reasoned dialogue and contest of ideas so will only resort to downzapping and other less constructive more combative tactics when all attempts to engage in a reasoned and good faith manner have been absolutely exhausted.
I think the way we use SN has evolved over the years. While I first began posting actively here (in the “heyday” of 2022-2023) — where it was common to haul in thousands of sats for an average post, SN felt like a V4V platform. People who took the time out to create thoughtful, insightful and comprehensive posts were duly rewarded — and rightfully so.
However, as the long-form posters went MIA and the rewards dwindled from a once-enticing 100k sats, SN has felt more like an online third space for me. The notion of V4V isn’t that salient these days — to me, at least. More like a community in which people zap me because they resonate with something I’ve said, and not because of the quality of my writing. Does that make sense?
Long form content still seems to be increasing on SN though: #1313515
I think I have a different impression / definition of a long-form post. I was thinking of @davidw ’s posts.
And 新年快乐。心想事成。
Oh yeah that is very long form, which I didn't test for in the data.
新年快樂 恭喜發財
Yes, I was surprised by the exodus after the introduction of cowboy credits
I also thought there were too many editorials when I first joined, Stacker News Punditocracy
I did enjoy reading all those editorials because they seemed like a shortcut to optimising my efforts here haha
a shortcut to optimise? how so?
There was a time where I posted guides to navigating SN, such as this one because I knew they would do well haha
that's smart and I think a lot of new users would appreciate them
I think I remember this guide or top 10 reasons
@Solomonsatoshi is an example of idiots in power, give them a breeze of power and their moral superiority starts harassing different-thinkers.
We must be impeccable examples of the highest moral standard and proove this to the moral aurority.
Where have I seen this already...
This is why we have guns irl
cool experiment tho
You attack me rather than what I have said.
Can you credibly and convincingly attack what I have said?
I wonder...
sorry i can't read your comments, gives me diahrrea, keep clear
I have been seeing recently since the last SN release that Solomons replies are consistently getting downzapped. I thought it was Darth but he probably wouldn't waste SATs like that.
The thing is if you're going to reply with the same unrelated dribble be it CCP winning or attach wallet maximalism, you should expect to get downzapped.
I'm here for the bounties
If money works as the moderator, anyone can be here for any reason.
I wonder if it would be cool if there was a way to display all the bounties a stacker has collected.
I forgot saloon... saloon + bounties like the wild wild west (deadwood)
Edit: I forgot I am a 'moderator' or territory owner... when I first joined SN I thought it was strange there was no territory for bitcoin mining, someone should create one, someone not named me lol
Occasionally I am an unpaid @coinos ambassador, unpaid and un-Canadian
Meta patents AI that continues posting and messaging from deceased users' accounts by replicating past online behavior.
from Watcher Guru
Exactly. Why would I waste valuable sats with an idiot?
I prefer to post memes and make fun of him.
Many peopke here still don't know how to be a power user of SN.
Do you know for how long and how many times I tried to raise this issue with the people who are posting endless Bitcoin hyperbole but not attaching wallet?
Did you count how many times a response was made to those comments that was not full of bullshit and name calling avoidance of the issues raised?
Do you deny that there is a contest for supremacy/hegemony between the US and China?
Am here for the contest of ideas, V4V, P2P, sats denominated ethos that is both intentional and experimental.
Am also here to consume content, to seek truth by engaging in the contest of ideas, and pay for it with sats.
Downzapping has been my last resort after trying and failing to engage in a reasoned manner...I have never downzapped anything without it be clear why I am downzapping.
Do not trust- Verify
It's hard to imagine people banning you. You're pretty much the most reasonable person around these parts.
I have since realized that my error was posting in r/bitcoin with a fresh account. Back earlier in my Bitcoin journey, I thought it would be interesting to post some guides I had written there. I had never used reddit before, so I created an account and posted. It got one of these auto-shadowbans that r/bitcoin has. I'm sure they get so overwhelmed with spam and shit posts that they have gated the entire subreddit to accounts that have at least some karma. I did some research and learned that I probably needed to warm my account up posting on things like r/houseplants or whatever. Lost interest after that.
(although, I did try again more recently when I wanted to do some research on r/buttcoin and buttcoiners:
I did eventually manage to get a post up in r/buttcoin, but it took a long time and a bunch of stupidity like the mods auto-deleting my post, but some people still being able read it and respond, but then I couldn't respond to those people because I had been automatically banned or something.)
Reddit is the mess it is because they've opted for superuser moderators. Maybe that's the best method we had (prior to SN), but humans can only do so much and when a new user wants to post on a super popular board, the only way to defend the long-standing active users (who really are the core of the community) is to shadowban. Otherwise, I assume the wall of bots and spam degrades the experience for everyone.
Reddit is really hard to post in as a new user. If you have no reputation on a sub it's very common to get all your posts deleted, even for perfectly on topic and relevant posts
That was my experience. I think it's still undecided whether sats alone are enough to solve the problem of users who have no reputation/karma/history, but it might be.
I don't think we can quite extrapolate the SN to the Reddit experience just yet. But I'd say SN is about as active as a mid tier subreddit, yet we're operating just fine using sats as the moderator
Although new users on SN don't get explicitly blocked, I do observe them having a hard time getting engagement. But that's partly coz we've been inundated with bots and it's hard to tell who's a genuine new user and who's a bot
I think I stumbled upon SN in 2022 and made my comment a few months later then came back a few months later in 2023
What helps is creating a 'bio' or profile... I was surprised by the welcome reception or orientation
You are right, it is difficult for a new user to break through
@freetx discovered Reddit in the early days
He has some great stories about Reddit
The answer is Reddit, mystery + riddle + enigma solved
It sounds like that's not the only place where he alienated folks
It's always Reddit, Twitter (I assume before Elon) and Hacker News
Do you know why?
I posted a link to one of the Tether pieces I wrote.
They were very reasonable, but this is still a symptom of what SN fixes, I think. Forums like Hacker News have to be careful not to allow content from other forums because it may lead to lots of posting trying to cannibalize their readers (which to an extent was what I was trying to do).
If we are able to shift the world to a pay-to-post model, perhaps this isn't as much of an issue. Although, I admit this is a difficult problem to solve.
I think a subtle issue here is that they see SN as another forum, but some of the posts here are more like blog posts than forum posts.
Not sure how to thread that needle, but I always did think that SN's most viable growth path is as a Substack alternative, and as a Disqus-style plugin.
Cunt bags
there is or used to user named hn or hacker news
update: last post was on Jan 4, https://stacker.news/hn/all
I think @ek ran that bot. Now that he doesn't work for SN he probably didn't think the bot was worth running anymore.
It would be worth running if there weren’t breaking API changes every few months. @hn broke because of crossposting. @nitter is still running because the API for comments didn't change.
The mods on hacker news are cunt bags?
That's like saying the plane crashed due to gravity. Wondering what their fake reason was. Or if there was one.
The plane crashed because the pilot was female
that's stupid
It's particularly funny that he freaked out about my current setup. I zap real sats to everyone who has a receive wallet attached.
The reason I unattached my receive wallet is that my LN channel with Stacker News never had any inbound liquidity and I wanted to see if I could change that.
Your actual point is great and it's what drew me to SN before I had even heard of V4V.
The only signals that should matter are costly signals. Attaching a wallet is free and carries no meaningful information...as is demonstrated by your case.
But SN needs to be a platform that is very difficult to game. The recent downzap storms are a great chance to find out how powerful downzaps are and whether they can be gamed.
excellent insight
Edit:
when @optimism raised comment fee to 45, I realized I had almost nothing valuable to say in his territory
The 45 didn't help so I've divided it by 3.
investment advice: long MU (Micron)
That's also how I feel but people are allowed to have whatever preferences they have and are free to put their sats towards those ends. I really don't mind the idea of cultural enforcement through downzaps, we'll see who comes out on top.
Like you say, we need to go through these stress tests to see what we can handle and what can happen here.
Fair point and you may notice my CCP bot algorithms have been adjusted recently to allow for such variables - although, if I can attach both send and receive surely almost anyone can?
coinos works fine 98% of the time.
If we want closer to 100% on LN lets work toward it by using LN . . . or what ? Like @DarthCoin just use CCs 'because they always work'...and leave the LN to die from lack of use...
Inbound liquidity only grows when there is demand for and use of it.
Very well said.
For me SN is great for two reasons
Death spiral.
oh noes
let's not panic... yet
Coiled spring.
I am definitely not educated and experienced enough to comment on this topic, but I wanted to say very briefly that before I came here, I did not know about giving or receiving satoshis instead of likes and unlikes. And my only goal and concern was to solve my questions for which I could not find the right answer anywhere and to reach the right answer... But after leaving a comment and asking a question, I was surprised because very soon they guided me and gave me some Satoshi to ask my question. In most of the posts I posted, I saw that there are people here who really have a very high level of knowledge and literacy, and this is extremely valuable... In fact, I think that if there is no discussion of Satoshi, even if there is a monthly subscription fee to be here, many people will still come and work here because this is a big university for people who want to learn. Oh, I'm sorry, I wanted it to be short, but it got longer than long
As someone who has been banned from other platforms for no clear reason, this perspective is very refreshing. Using sats as a 'signal' instead of a human moderator makes the conversation feel more honest. It’s not just about the money; it’s about the freedom to speak without an algorithm hiding your voice.
very good boys 👏🏼
npub1jfujw6llhq7wuvu5detycdsq5v5yqf56sgrdq8wlgrryx2a2p09svwm0gx
There are a lot of opportunities in the horizon.
i swear i'm not a noob but wtf is a downzap lol. anyhow thoughtul post, love this
Please someone give me a zip for activity and posting, I want to post but I don't have any balance
It makes perfect sense and I think you are touching on something important about the natural evolution of any online community especially one that blends financial incentives with social interaction. When Stacker News first emerged the novelty of earning sats for thoughtful contributions naturally framed it as a value for value platform in the minds of many users. That framing worked really well when the culture was dominated by long form posts and deep engagement because the incentive translated directly into rewarding quality.
But as communities grow and shift their composition the culture inevitably changes. We start to see different modes of participation and different signals of value beyond strictly the quality of writing or insight. What you are describing now resonates with how peer to peer digital spaces often morph over time. Early adopters bring ideals and mission driven energy while later waves of users tend to integrate the platform into their daily online habits forming something closer to a communal third space.
The core mechanism of Stacker News using sats as a signal remains intact but the meaning of those signals can shift. In the early days a zap might have meant appreciation for intellectual rigor. Today it might mean connection resonance or even just a nod of recognition. That does not mean the platform has lost its essence rather it has broadened the spectrum of what constitutes value in its ecosystem.