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But it has had upsides too- It forced me and most other regular users here to learn how to get and attach a LN wallet.
You are definitely right about this. I didn't really learn about lightning until I wanted to get on SN and start posting. It certainly motivated me to figure things out and get a wallet set up.
Every time we zap P2P V4V LN gets stronger.
I also agree with this. I just think it is a side-effect of replacing mods and algos with sats. But it is still great and as you say it would be interesting to measure what percent of lightning transactions in a given day are due to SN.
the introduction of CCs
I don't mind CCs as much as some people do. I know that some stackers left because of them. If there were no CCs, how would it change how you feel about attaching wallets? (just as an hypothetical: imagine if users didn't attach a wallet, any zaps they received went 100% to rewards. Of course, such users would still have to pay to post -- in this case would you still feel that users who talk about being Bitcoiners but don't attach wallets are being hypocrites?)
But if you claim to be serious about Bitcoin, LN and building the protocol and LN but can't be bothered enough to attach wallets, and proudly show that you have done this then I call Hypocrit.
I really don't spend much time thinking about what people claim to feel about Bitcoin. I'm interested in the arguments they make. There are all kinds of weird dorks in bitcoin, many of them are great, some of them are horrendous -- but any of them might have interesting things to add to this permissionless protocol. So, I really wouldn't care much if Satoshi Nakamoto himself showed up and started telling everyone to buy MSTR. Bitcoin works because we all make our own minds up about what is reasonable (this is why we run nodes, no?). I don't really care if someone is a hypocrite, they might still be able to change my mind on something.
I still maintain, what matters most on SN are the words you post and the sats you zap/pay. The rest is less important to me.
Do you understand why CCs were introduced?
I explained above why-
-'I came here initially attracted by the opportunity to participate in and experience a V4V social media that is denominated in sats.
It had been talked about before but never built- so great to see it and try it.
It was 100% denominated in sats when I arrived here- but then the creeping threat of regulatory pressure- even prosecution from US government agencies forced the introduction of CCs and the option of users attaching their LN wallets so we could still have P2P V4V sats denominated...and SNs platform could avoid the risk of prosecution on the pretext of money transmission.
Needing to attach LN wallets placed a higher burden on users- it requires them to attach LN wallets because of government Chokepoint style pressure.'
I also explained I do not have a problem with newbies or people who simply don't care about Bitcoin and LN want to use CCs.
They should imo still be free to participate fully in the dialogue and community even if they are not Bitcoiners - Hopefully over time they might come to understand Bitcoins unique and valuable properties - but nobody should ever be forced to use BTC/LN.
The more different viewpoints SNs has contributing makes SNs more interesting and less of an echo chamber.
What I do object to is those who claim to be Bitcoiners and rabbit on about Bitcoin and how wonderful it is, but cant be bothered to make a small actual effort attach a LN and use here and thereby support the use of LN and sats denominated integrity of the platform.
People like @DarthCoin
They are blatant hypocrits.
They may present amusing, interesting and useful content, but all their content is sullied by their blatant hypocrisy. They are saying they want LN and BTC to develop and grow in strength but their inaction is working directly against that stated objective.
Their words are not matched by their actions.
It does not matter what proportion of the LN SNs zapping makes up- it may not be a large proportion, but if those who say they want LN to grow and develop cannot be bothered to attach wallets and support LN development it is absurd and blatant hypocrisy.
You say - 'I still maintain, what matters most on SN are the words you post and the sats you zap/pay. The rest is less important to me.'
I agree content is important but disagree that obvious hypocrits have credibility. They do not. They are saying one thing and doing another thing. All of their content is debased by their hypocrisy.
Also agree zapping sats is important- this is one of the few places we can use, test and support the LN everyday, sometimes many times a day!
But some, while claiming to be BTC Maxis are refusing to use the LN here, and are not zapping sats- they are zapping mostly shitcoin CCs which were only introduced as a compromise under regulatory pressure. They are hypocrits and are debasing the sats denominated nature of the platform.
Stacker News needs participants who come here and consume content contribute sats into the SNs economy. Or it will die. Those consumers of content are the suppliers of the energy required to grow both SNs and LN.
I come here for content, as a content consumer, with my attached LN wallets so I can pay for content and occasionally receive sats zaps from others. It is a pleasure to be able to use LN / sats in such a way knowing that it is growing the LN and doing precisely what The White paper set out to enable.
I have gained information and tips here of real value and consider it a worthwhile and mostly enjoyable expenditure of sats... better than any other social media platform I have known. far less spam and trash.
But it is a competitive marketplace and when I see content providers who claim to be serious bitcoiners 'living on The Bitcoin Standard' but cannot be bothered attaching sending wallets to enable a reciprocal sats denominated V4V P2P economy - they are saying they cannot be bothered to enable sending me or anyone else, sats - but they want my sats and those of consumers of their content...
I say No. All their content is compromised.
They are hypocrits.
I am not buying their content.
I may downzap their content.
The consumer has power.
That is free market forces operating.
BTW I appreciate the chance to discuss these issues as it is potentially more constructive than endless downzapping.
Hey man, just a heads up that I think most of the downzaps you've suffered are from folks that simply think you've brought these issues up in the wrong places. I think most of those people never downzap just because they disagree with an argument. Or at least I don't. But I'm a pretty harsh downzapper of irrelevant material. Again, that might just be a difference of opinion of what we want sn to be. Anyway, food for thought...
As far as the downzaps you've made, I'm with @Scoresby. Bring 'em on! I can take it! haha
I suspect that any downzapping of my comments- and I am not even aware of any really to be honest but if it has happened then is probably from people who do not like what I am saying but cannot credibly refute it using reason and convincing argument.
Am only downzapping others after long trying to raise the issues i raise in a dialogue, only to be almost universally responded to with trolling, abuse and utter nonsense - all though consistently seeking to avoid and evade the issues raises.
I much prefer, always, to engage in reasoned dialogue and contest of ideas so will only resort to downzapping and other less constructive more combative tactics when all attempts to engage in a reasoned and good faith manner have been absolutely exhausted.
'As I understand it, Stacker News is about making money the moderator.'
Making money the moderator is an integral part of the whole idea of V4V.
So your argument that V4V is not an integral part of the SNs project is invalid.
~
Another important aspect you do not address is the sats denominated aspect of the SNs V4V proposition.
I came here initially attracted by the opportunity to participate in and experience a V4V social media that is denominated in sats.
It had been talked about before but never built- so great to see it and try it.
It was 100% denominated in sats when I arrived here- but then the creeping threat of regulatory pressure- even prosecution from US government agencies forced the introduction of CCs and the option of users attaching their LN wallets so we could still have P2P V4V sats denominated...and SNs platform could avoid the risk of prosecution on the pretext of money transmission.
Needing to attach LN wallets placed a higher burden on users- it requires them to attach LN wallets because of government Chokepoint style pressure.
But it has had upsides too- It forced me and most other regular users here to learn how to get and attach a LN wallet.
This system makes the overall SNs model even more P2P and more resilient.
Think of the number of LN transactions that are now made everyday via LN due to the adoption of attached wallets on Stacker News.
It has forced the wallets to increase capacity and liquidity.
Sometimes they still fail to keep up with the transaction volume growth but every transaction is paying fees and building a stronger network.
So for those of us who proclaim a serious interest in BTC and the LN growing stronger and becoming more useful and capable ~ attaching wallets has and does enable that.
Every time we zap P2P V4V LN gets stronger.
And yet, there are some here who think attaching wallets is too much of an effort- too unreliable, too inconvenient.
If they at the same time claim to be serious Bitcoiners and the content of their posts harps on about and promotes LN and BTC systems and technology development and adoption, I call BullShit & HypoCrit.
Walk the Talk!
' it seems to me like you would be happier with a platform that only allows users who have connected a lightning wallet: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about such a platform'
No -you have misread my position.
CCs are there for people who are not capable or interested to attach a LN wallet/s- that's fine by me. Bitcoin/LN should never be forced upon anyone imo.
If people are just here as newbies or casual users and not serious about or interested in Bitcoin / LN, ok- fine use CCs.
But if you claim to be serious about Bitcoin, LN and building the protocol and LN but can't be bothered enough to attach wallets, and proudly show that you have done this then I call Hypocrit.
BTW I appreciate the chance to discuss these issues as it is potentially more constructive than endless downzapping.