What are our visions for the mass use of bitcoin?
I assume that
- prospectively, we don't want to make the blocks bigger, so as not to centralise the nodes
- the normal user won't even be able to use the on-chain because of the costs.
- everything will happen on the lightning network
- it will be impossible for most people to have their own custody... (since on-chain transactions are required)
β people will have to rely on some companies or mints.
The result is that one cannot use bitcoin permission-less.
Do you know of any suggestions that would address this problem?
Or do you not consider it a problem?
I don't know who is "we". I would simply say that everyone is free to fork Bitcoin to whatever block size they think is best, and anyone is free to use the fork they prefer. Nevertheless, the majority of people seem to like the current blocksize, that's true.
That's a strong statement. How can be sure of that? Keep in mind that, as lightning and other solutions increase their adoption, more and more pressure is taken off the main chain.
Imagining an hyperbitcoinized economy, I could open a few channels worth 3 or 4 times my monthly salary, and use them for months and years to perform most of my financial transactions.
I would change that to a less absolutist "an important percentage of transactions will settle on the lightning network".
This already falls apart with the previous comments. Nevertheless, you are probably right in that many people will rely on companies of mints. But that isn't necessarily bad.
Let's make an analogy with banks since we are more familiar with them. Banks fuck you up because they can. They can because it's an oligopoly (you have no where to run to). It's an oligopoly because new players can't get in because of regulation and corruption. It's a walled garden.
The walled garden is the root of the problem: it prevents free-market competition from taking place. You see, in a world where opening a bank was as easy as opening a lemonade stall, there would be plenty of competition. As the market matured, there would be plenty of great entities with an outstanding track record. You would have plenty of options with low risks of being rug-pulled or screwed over in various ways.
Take this bank to lightning custodians: it's an open garden, not a closed one. You are going to see more and more and more entities joining the market. You will have plenty of players like Bluewallet/Wallet of Satoshi/Alby/Pouch/etc. from where to choose. You will be able to split your sats across several of them, and if one of them ever does anything stupid, you will have somewhere to run to.
So, you posed:
I argue back: they will have a wonderful market to choose from.
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Better UX with joining transactions is a optimisation that can save transaction fees and block space.
I really think that's the way to market and sell coin join: cheaper transactions... (letting privacy to be just a nice trojan horse)
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Good point
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I pay $84 per year to my bank because I (usually) don't keep a $1,500 average balance and thus incur monthly fees.
I don't expect even the fee for opening an LN channel to rise to even 10% of that, at least not in the next half decade. Plus there are improvements coming to make the fees for channel open/close even lower.
So the idea is to use on-chain for everyone, right?
No.
Many people use a custodian for their funds. In the bitcoin ecosystem, that will also be the case -- even with numerous methods for self-custody that are easy to use, safe and inexpensive.
One of my LN wallets that I use is custodial -- Wallet of Satoshi (WoS). I don't keep much on WoS (or any wallet on my phone). I am comfortable with using WoS for retail and/or other light-duty payments.
Lightning uses payment channels. So if you want to to use Lightning and you want to be self-custody, then you need a channel on-chain. That's the design. Does that scale to a billion plus active users? No, Lightning alone with everyone using their own on-chain channels does not scale to a billion plus active users.
Lightning is not the only layer 2 technology though. I can't predict what the space will look like a dozen years out, or even a couple years out even. But I can say many of the brightest people on earth are figuring out how to self-custody your bitcoin on a layer two.
Ok, so basically we don't have any vision for that.
The vision is
BITCOIN WILL EVENTUALLY BE A SETTLEMENT-ONLY LAYER
Layer Twos will be where scaling will need to occur.
Sure.. but my question is how to do it permission-less way?
I just checked.
The most recent block mined was clearing even some 1 sat/vB transactions.
LN will scale for you today, tomorrow, next year, maybe even for the next decade.
There's nothing that is in concrete that blocks will not ever increase in size. Just that there is no urgency for that to happen today. Or next year, or maybe not even in the next decade.
L2's have removed that on-chain pressure.
So you still have the ability for an on-chain channel, today, without a high fee.
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Doesn't Phoenix Wallet meet this requirement. The funds are self custody.
It's just UX improvement.. Nice but doesn't solve the issue..
Why doesn't it solve the issue?
Partially it does. Phoenix Wallet opens channel for you.. But if we assume that on-chain capacity is quite limited? It will be still very costly..
A 1 time cost to have an open channel. How expensive are you expecting on-chain to be?
It's not one time only.. you will need to increase or close that channel later.. Nobody has constant value across whole life :-)
If we want to onboard basically everyone.. it's seems currently impossible without increasing the space in blocks.. So the costs would be prohibitive.
But maybe there is some other idea how to approach that. And that is purpose of this discussion to find it :-)
You can keep a channel open even if its empty and continue to receive with it.
Actually you know I don't expect people to store their life savings on ln either. I'd anticipate them to ln to on-chain swap to cold storage, but those funds should be used pretty infrequently.
I mean so far we've seen improvement after improvement where txs are smaller and smaller and therefore cost less and less.
I remember when people used to worry that ln would mean the death of on-chain tx fees and therefore the death of mining and therefore the death of Bitcoin. Now I see you speculating the other way around. So can we just wait until we run into a real problem rather than speculating on problems that don't exist causing us to chase our tails?
You are right.. I believe that we will find solution.. But even current development should consider the probability of further potential ways..
And we should beware that some custodial solutions do not prevail...
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MimbleWimble sidechain for Litecoin is meant to be awfully small due to the limited amount of data store.
Also +1 for privacy.
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Thanks for your comments π
My current understanding is that there is no universal recommendation.
As the simplest non-custodial solution seems to me Phoenix Wallet, but
Other known approaches that could in combination work are:
And this actually bring me to a weird idea.. π€
Receive the payment to a node other than mine, but it would be encrypted somehow so that the owner of the node can't spend it without my permission. Then I wouldn't need a channel. I can't get the funds without cooperation, but at least he can't rob medeleted by author
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If billions of people will rush to use bitcoin and use it permissionlessly, a lot of new nodes will appear so the blocks could be made bigger. But realistically, 90% of people will settle for mints, Liquid, custodial wallets just as they settle for exchanges now.
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You have blixt wallet too if you wanted to be more hardcore about it and mutiny.
I think part of the problem though is that you don't consider a 2 of two multi-sig with on-chain arbitration to be self custody and its not making sense to me as to why not
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