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I've been reading Jason Zweig's new updated edition of legendary investor Benjamin Graham's classic The Intelligent Investor.
For background:
  • Graham was a Wall Street/investment banker type from the early/mid-20th century, retiring from that career in the and wrote several editions of this investment classic. He is most well-known for being Warren Buffet's inspiration (don't know if they had professional connections, perhaps some Stackers know?), and very much sing that gospel: long-term view, buy securities at good price, don't trade/speculate, etc etc.
  • Jason Zweig, a Wall Street Journal journalist I've followed for years, has done this sort of updating of Graham's book before—this is the 75th anniversary of the first book—and on the pages of the WSJ he is very much a broken record. Low-cost index funds, DCA into market, be wary of your own emotions, stay the course, never trade etc.
I'll have lots to say for posts in ~BooksAndArticles eventually, but for now I'm asking my ~econ tribe a very simple regime-change question: Do you think this type of value investing is outdated? Past its prime? Dead? A figment of mid-20th C fiat money?
I even found a segment where Graham himself seems to admit as much. (Page number in comments) Every investment formula eventually falters, he says, often because it was shown to never have been sound at its core or—as I learned studying the efficient market hypothesis literature and factor returns (also, Graham's second point below implies as much)—that publishing formulas and/or acting on them quickly dissipates the excess returns they may have once discovered.
...the passage of time brings new conditions which the old formula no longer fits...
That's exactly what I'm considering now. Buffet is an infamous bitcoin critic, once saying he wouldn't buy all the bitcoin in the world if offered to him, even for a pittance, because "what would I do with them?" (see my 2022 article for Bitcoin Magazine). Graham certainly wouldn't touch the orange coin, chalking it (and its supporters' staunch beliefs) up to new era speculative fevors.

Does bitcoin's extreme excess returns—and the very different monetary regime it promises if/when it takes over the world—undermine these principles? Is value investing timeless, or just something that worked well for a few decades of late-stage fiat collapse?

From the point of view of inside the bitcoin "new era bubble" it's hard for me to see why that idea would be wrong, but I do think bitcoin breaks most/all models and approaches like these will just fade into history's vast dustbin.
This was my approach to investing long ago and it definitely worked. But I became bored with it plus I was tired of my money going to companies that don’t align with my values and more importantly not pushing a bitcoin standard.
So I switched my investment approach into companies I actually want to own beyond the returns they may generate for me.
While I might HFSP in fiat terms for doing this I know I can say I did all I can to be the change I want to see in the world and not be mindlessly pumping money into passive investment vehicles while those same companies force people to take vaccines or sell slop as food and rake in billions in profit but pay their employees to keep them hand to mouth.
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Hmm, a couple of thoughts.
  1. "Publishing formulas and/or acting on them quickly dissipates excess returns." Spot on. One of the interesting things about econ vs. physics is that in physics, what we understand about physical reality doesn't change physical reality. But in econ, what we understand about econ shapes our behavior, which then shapes economic reality.
    • The popularity of low cost index funds is especially worrisome and self-referential. Many people have written about whether/how price discovery still works in a model where price movements are dominated by fund flows driven by ETFs that follow simple rules about a stock's proportion within an index.
  2. Does bitcoin's extreme returns undermine the principles of value investing? I don't think so. The extreme returns are transitory, and part of an information gathering process as people slowly wrap their heads around it. IMO, we are still early because the level of understanding out there is very limited.
  3. Is value investing dead? If I understand value investing to mean buying underpriced cash flows, then no I don't think it's dead at all. Cash flows (and the expectation of future cash flows, thereof) still reflect an economic reality of value creation. That will never change regardless of whether we are on a fiat or bitcoin standard.
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  1. How appropriate that Soros, Mr. reflexivity himself, got awarded today! #837022
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Oh, I didn't know Soros was closely associated with this idea.
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He is the guy most associated with reflexivity. Hardly unique or original but in the field of finance it's definitely the name and concept that first comes to mind for me
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2. and 3.
Yeah, this is what I see as well #837546
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Finance has never really been my strength or my interest, but I'll take a whack at this.
I think the rapid returns to bitcoin are just part of its emergence as money. Basically, it is so badly mispriced that it is appreciating at a record pace. My personal guesstimate is that once Bitcoin reaches approximately $1M 2024 value, it will appreciate at an historically normal rate.
Once bitcoin stabilizes, there will be plenty of great value opportunities in the stock market. After all, those companies are the producers of real wealth and identifying well-run companies (or those with the potential to be well-run) is a very valuable skill.
I completely agree with your assessment of why investing formulas have to be short-lived. I remember reading something interesting, a long time ago, about how high-frequency trading algorithms had to adapt to deal with that problem. No doubt, in the age of AI/machine learning, this is an even more dramatic landscape.
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Agreed, agreed. That is very much my projection too:
once we've purged securities markets of their moneyness (by having an actual, superior money available), they will once more operate more closely to the principles Graham has discovered/formulated
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50 sats \ 1 reply \ @galt 5 Jan
Graham's insights are valid in a sound money system, in a fiat world like today liquidity and politics are more important. It will come back once we come back to a currency that cannot be manipulated
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That I can believe
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You’ve highlighted a crucial debate between Bitcoin’s disruptive potential and traditional value investing.
Value Investing vs. Bitcoin: Value investing relies on fundamentals like earnings and dividends, thriving during fiat instability. Bitcoin, with its decentralization and limited supply, doesn’t align with these traditional metrics, making it a challenging fit for value investors.
Bitcoin’s Impact: Bitcoin’s unique features and volatility challenge conventional financial models, potentially rendering some traditional strategies less effective. Its rapid growth and different underlying principles suggest a shift in how value might be perceived in the future.
Future Investment Strategies: While Bitcoin may disrupt traditional approaches, value investing could evolve to incorporate digital assets. Diversification remains key, blending traditional stocks with cryptocurrencies to navigate the changing financial landscape.
Conclusion: Whether value investing remains timeless or adapts depends on market and investor responses. Bitcoin introduces new dynamics, but the fundamental principles of assessing intrinsic value and long-term potential may still hold relevance in this new era.
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Cycles and rules are meant to be broken. We expect to have 100 years of innovation in the next 10 years and I believe a new globalized monetary system. But that would break all investing models. Gates, Buffett, and the biggest most successful companies are sitting on record cash (melting ice cubes) so something needs to give. I’m an optimist so you know I believe we keep going even if we hit some short term struggles!
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I remember reading The Intelligent Investor as a young guy, and embracing the ideals of value investing. I waited around for my undiscovered gems to appreciate 10 or 15 percent while my momentum loving friends made lots of money. Then I got FOMO and rode the dotcom wave. I would have gotten crushed with everyone else, but I was getting married and needed money for our first house, so I cashed out just before the dotcom blowout.
TLDR- I don't know
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Nice, sounds like you exited at just the right moment.
I have a bit of the opposite story. Instead of selling the top due to life changes we bought the bottom. Bought our first home in 2012, pretty much at the bottom of the financial crisis. It wasn't planned or anything, just happened to be moving to a new city and new job at the time.
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30 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 4 Jan
Nice! I got lucky that time, but not always. We bought our second house at the height of the real estate bubble right before the 2008 financial crisis. It took years to break even, but it's our forever home now.
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Good on yah for HODLing. Financially carrying assets is always the tricky part in our fiat world
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Lovely account, with a humble and epic sentiment
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50 sats \ 1 reply \ @Aardvark 4 Jan
Well, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) for me, I don't have a ton of education surrounding investment strategies. Pretty much everything I've learned about finance in general I've learned over the past half year.
I've basically come up with my own strategy flow chart:
Do I have any extra fiat? If yes: buy bitcoin. If no: get more fiat.
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Very simple, very relatable.
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22 sats \ 0 replies \ @B_rian 5 Jan
Bitcoin will be the dominant story of the next 10 years of the market. MSTR alone may see to that through the invention of financial instruments that allow bitcoin to access credit markets without banks even holding bitcoin on their balance sheet. I highly recommend folks check out Nik Bhatia's recent video and TFTC appearance where he digs into the mechanics.
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14 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ge 5 Jan
As said in one of my other favorite books the richest man in Babylon like the wind and the sun finances is one of those things that never changes I think it'll still work sadly 90% of the finance bros n people i know would be oozing over him if they ever read any of his book it's good basic stuff and 1 way to get to where u wanna get financially but just not my cup of tea
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Bitcoin will make value investing great again.
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No science or method is rigid and perpetual. All must adapt, methods and people to succeed going forward.
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segment is from p. 188 in this new (2024) edition.
Also bonus for yous HODLers still hanging around
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