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0 sats \ 31 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 21 Oct \ parent \ on: Minneapolis Fed's paper on banning Bitcoin to maintain "permanent deficits" bitcoin
Sure- you make it unlawful to hold or trade Bitcoin privately.
The vast majority of hodlers have been KYCed.
An increasing ratio of the market is already held by complicit institutions.
A ban on private custody, probably with payment for sats at current market price would mop up most of this threat to USD fiat debt hegemony.
Most of the western world is militarily and monetarily subservient to the US so would follow Uncle Sams lead.
You dont have to get every last sat but if you get a good most of them the thing is effectively captured and controlled. Ala Order 6102.
The majority of the world will defintely not follow Uncle Sams lead. Ban on gold only happened in USA. The most they can do is Europe following them, but Europe is more and more irrelevant and it is in the process of being destroyed.
If they ban Bitcoin from USA or Europe we move to another country and let them devaluate their shit-fiat-coin until they are completely irrelevant. Bitcoin would only suffer a 2 year devaluation like it happened with the China ban. After that, it will be unstoppable.
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Are you saying Japan, S.Korea, Australasia, Canada, the EU and Britain are not monetarily and militarily subservient tribute states to the US?
These are the nations where perhaps over 90% of the available Bitcoin is held, 90% of that already KYCed and or held under institutional custody.
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Are you saying that if those countries ban Bitcoin it would not be the start of their destruction?
Already major Bitcoin hodlers moved to more tolerant and less taxed countries to avoid the state. If that happens, the movement to LatAm, Asia, and even Africa will be massive, and would only impoverish USA even more.
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Its complex. As China grows the number of nation states explicitly operating under its monetary hegemony- ie N.Korea, Iran, Russia already are and other non 'liberal western democracies' join them there will be some more neutral territories where Bitcoin may continue to operate. But if a US originating ban occurs the number of territories where a free market in Bitcoin can exist could become increasingly small.
The EU, Britain, Canada, Australiasia and Japan and S.Korea would probably be the last to accept trade payments in CBDC Yuan and would continue to support USD hegemony, and a very likely part of such a contest would be the imposition of increasing restrictions on Bitcoin- especially private custody.
If a US based ban could capture 80% plus of the Bitcoin market cap not much is left for those in the middle ground between China and 'the west'.
IMO the downfall of the west is increasingly the capture of our governments by rentseeking fiat bankers- so Bitcoin could reverse that, but it seems an outside chance at best.
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If you stop being a fucking statist and use for a bit your brain you will realize that just by NOT funding those CORPORATIONS (that are nation states) you will remove all your problems.
Watch and learn
https://video.nostr.build/fb30452e7e6e9d307e9ed656284e5e089581018e2c7518503bc5e969069788ab.mp4
Is so fucking simple: stop being an obedient shitizen.
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Do not agree.
Suspect you would be a quivering shivering whimpering wreck if placed into a situation where the nation state is weak or non-existant and left to fend for yourself.
Human are weaklings on their own- have you watched 'Alone'?
Humans have gained their dominance by being in groups.
We may not sometimes like nation state over reach either and can and should protest it- Bitcoin is a classic and elegant example of this- but do not delude myself that the nation state is not the primary mechanism which determines the global allocation of wealth and resources. Go live in a third world nation if you do not understand.
Can also stand on my record of fighting the nation state in the face of its excesses while all around me stood by and said - 'yes what they are doing is bad, you cannot do that' well I did and I exposed them but I accept there are many with many bold words of protest but few with the action to confront the nation state when push comes to shove.
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You are confused. Being in groups doesn't justify states at all. The state is not a group, it is a gang, whose mission is to enslave you.
It is perfectly possible to live in tribes, towns, even regions and continents, without the rule of a mafia gang. It happened in the past with no problem whatsoever. For example, the native Americans, the Spanish before the Roman empire, the vikings, most of Africa just some hundred years ago, etc, etc.
Abusing and imposing over others is in our DNA because we have an ego, but natural law and the NAP is also in our DNA. It only depends on what side you choose.
And it is possible to go a transition: people remove more and more power from the states until it has none. But it probably requires a massive socialist apocalypse, which will happen.
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The state is not a group?
Really
You are confused.
Yes people can live in small groups where they are not accessible to larger more organised and weaponised groups- but once they come in contact, brother- its all on and you do not want to be in the smaller group.
The contest for resources goes back to the emergence of life- pre-sentient microbial life.
Today humans in nation state groups are organised in a hierarchy that allocates the resources depending upon a mix of trade, leverage and threat of force.
Agree there is a degree of choice within how we act and respond to the natural competitive nature of life. But there is also a limit to it and when you cannot even recognise nation states as the primary organised grouping its hard to know where to go from there.
IMO people in 'the west' who have enjoyed being on the winning side of imperialism mostly for centuries lack sufficient appreciation for this reality.
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I rectify: the state is a group of gangsters. Not a good group, because you cannot choose to be in it or not, and, as you say, it is organized in a hierarchy of force.
The NAP and the natural moral law doesn't go against groups, only against groups that use coercion and violence. Under this, you can participate of any group that you like and you are accepted, which is very contrary to what states do: impose and destroy your choice, enslaving you.
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Again, your statist mind is speaking.
WHO fund the nation states conflicts?
Answer this question and you will have the solution.
A nation state will never go against a single individual.
And the most powerful nation state IS the individual. The sovereign individual.
But if you still want to be a shitizen, inside your nation state (prison), go ahead, I have nothing against that. But do not try to put me inside with you. I do not consent.
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No, most individuals are incapable of surviving alone. Watch Alone!
Try living in the bush for a week. Learn how weak you are alone!
Nations states compete for dominance- it is in the DNA of life.
If you want to be a rock alone ok good luck - otherwise the quality life for most people is largely reliant on the strength of the nation state they happen to be part of.
For myself I am happy to pay taxes and be a part of the democratic process as apathetic and disengaged and cynical as so many sadly are now- its worth fighting for. I accept the benefits of living in a liberal western democracy and the extensive freedoms that I can enjoy within it.
I believe I enjoy greater freedom than the vast majority of people on earth- I can do as I please within fairly liberal and reasonable boundaries.
That said IMO Bitcoin is a healthy competitive challenge to the overly embedded fiat hegemony composed of rentseeking private bankers that has captured our governments.
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Your "liberal western democracy" is rapidly de-evolving into communism. Because that's what democracies tend to. And even in communism, a lot of people are happy, because they love slavery and avoid responsibility at any cost. It's called evil people, and there are only two possible outcomes for this:
- Evil (socialist) people win, then massive destruction and suffering will happen.
- Good (anarchist) people win, then we initiate a massive evolution that will carry us to the stars and impressive technology and good life.
And the state is the tool of the evil people, people who do not want to be responsible of their acts. Bitcoin is the tool of good people, the people who want to be responsible of their acts.
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There are definitely problems in western liberal democracies.
Democracies depend upon enough citizens being prepared to voluntarily contribute to the process and believe in the process and I accept that willingness to contribute and believe is breaking down.
For me capture of elected representatives by corproate sponsors is a major cause of the cynicism and apathy which is evident.
I see Bitcoin as a significant potential challenge to the corporate sponsors and crony capitalists (bankers), but citizen apathy is another side of the same coin.
Got to go to dinner.
cheers.
For myself I am happy to pay taxes and be a part of the democratic process
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Fails to respond with reasoned fact based dialogue.
Loses, by default, the good faith contest of ideas.
Descends to trollery.
The vast majority of hodlers have been KYCed.
So what? If they never go back to fiat, what is the problem?
Please explain how you would take my sats from a private wallet?
From this one for example:
Please take them if you can
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Most people will cave to the threat of prosecution and the fact that if they dont surrender their sats will be illegal to trade and therefore considerably devalued.
They don't need to capture all sats and all hodlers- they dont care if you hodl on as long as they effectively end the open market- again, see Order 6102 for effective historical precedent.
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You are forgetting one thing. While governments are doing all this, they are also making sure fiat money is an increasingly unattractive option to hold, and at an accelerating pace.
So there are two forces at play. One is as you describe where government pressures people to turn over their bitcoin, and you're right, some people will. The other is the force of survival that people have in the face of debasing money.
There are many examples in history where people risk life and limb to smuggle their wealth out of bad situations. You seem to think this survival instinct has disappeared from humanity. It is alive and well and Bitcoin makes it easier than ever compared to what refugees throughout history have done. Don't underestimate the motivation debasing money gives to people.
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Good point.
Hope enough people are prepared to stand up and fight for the right to hold Bitcoin privately. Perhaps there will be.
It's yet to be decided but IMO we have to be prepared and realistic about the probability they will seek to shut Bitcoin down.
Saying it will never happen just means if/when it does you will not be prepared for it - and that suits them just fine!
BE PREPARED!!!
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I agree with you. People will not give up, Bitcoin is so special.
However... an unmovable wall (government debt) is (finally?) coming into contact with an unstoppable force - Bitcoin.
And I'm not exactly sure what that will look like. Beyond the ECB and FED papers of late we're familiar with. Some sort of... unresolved conflict.
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Like most Bitcoiners you ignore the reality that as the USD fiat global hegemony has been declining since the Chinese economy and Chinese model of global resource hegemony has been building, relentlessly. This is understandably uncomfortable for Libertarians as it is runs counter to their belief that free markets will always rule supreme- history tell a very different story.
As the tertiary layer of the global network of infrastructure that China is building China is developing protocols to enable competition with the US legacy institutional and protocols which have emplaced and enforced US hegemony.
One of the most important of these Chinese protocols is its CBDC Yuan...sometimes called DCEP or E-Yuan.
DCEP is designed to greatly increase the efficiency of the Yuan fiat system and to enable very swift and efficient international trade payments outside of and free of the USD SWIFT hegemony.
Compared to Chinas already developed internal and external digital payments capacity Bitcoin is a midget.
It is far more likely that the Chinese CBDC will emerge as the major replacement of the USD.
All nations must trade with China or suffer serious consequences and from mercantile market dominance monetary dominance has almost always followed.
Do not think Bitcoin is the inevitable successor to the USD- it is not.
Bitcoin will probably play a minor role, especially in pockets of activity where Chinas advance is most strongly resisted- ie the 'western liberal democracies' who have been the major beneficiaries, allies and tributaries to the USD, but against the Chinese CBDC Bitcoins importance looks likely to be relatively minor.
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Please sell all your sats right now! Are worthless for you now.
What are you waiting for?
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Why would I? Gained custody of my liquid wealth as soon as I found it was possible and remain hopeful enough other people see the value of such a decentralised censorship and debasement resistant monetary system- but never thought it was a sure thing-amazed how far it has come already- its something worth being part of whether it fails or succeeds imo.
Fuck the rentseeking fiat debt parasites that own the government.
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Why would I?
Because you are preaching FUD
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No, just stating things as I see them- without fear or favour.
Not here to spout naive disingenuous pump and dump hopium.
They are a hornets nest.
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