What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So, what happens to the sats in my wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So I don't need to panic because sats in my wallet after Nov. 5th will remain available to withdraw just like they were on Nov. 4th?
Yes, that's right.
If my sats remain available to withdraw, then what changes on Nov. 5th?
To zap with real bitcoin and be zapped with real bitcoin, you'll need to attach an external lightning wallet for sending and receiving respectively:
- If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
- If you want to receive bitcoin when you're zapped on SN, you'll need to attach an external receiving wallet.
If I don't have or want to attach external wallets, what happens to the zaps I send and the zaps I receive after Nov. 5th?
- When you zap someone else, you'll send Cowboy Credits and they'll receive Cowboy Credits.
- When someone zaps you, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
What are "Cowboy Credits"?
SN will accept Cowboy Credits as payment for everything it accepts sats for (e.g. posting fees, territory fees, even donations). You can also send them to other stackers as zaps.
So the only difference between Cowboy Credits and sats is that I can't withdraw Cowboy Credits?
That's right. That's the only difference.
What happens to rewards and territory revenue after Nov. 5th?
Nothing. Rewards and territory revenue will work the same as they do now.
Even if I don't attach an external wallet?
Yes, you'll receive "Reward Sats" which (like all custodial wallet balances) are not to be mistaken as truly yours until you withdraw them. You can also buy Cowboy Credits with Reward Sats if you choose. The only real changes to rewards after Nov. 5th are:
- Reward Sats can't be zapped to other stackers
- Reward Sats are subject to the following magic words, aka terms and conditions:
From time to time, Company may, at its sole discretion, offer and provide prizes or awards of BTC ("Reward Sats") to individuals or entities based on Company initiatives, promotions, or for other reasons determined by Company. Company reserves the right to issue (or not issue) such Reward Sats to any person or entity, at any time, and without prior notice. If you are selected to receive Reward Sats, Company will notify you and will transmit the Reward Sats to your account. In order to claim the Reward Sats, you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice. Failure to provide accurate and complete information may result in the forfeiture of the Reward Sats. You acknowledge and agree that you do not own, and shall have no right, title, or interest in any Reward Sats until such time as the Reward Sats are successfully transferred to your designated Lightning wallet. Until the transfer is completed, all rights to the Reward Sats remain solely with Company. Company makes no guarantee regarding the timing or availability of any such Reward Sats.
Can I zap other stackers my Reward Sats?
No, without an external sending wallet, you can only zap other stackers Cowboy Credits.
Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?
No, they do not.
What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?
If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.
If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
I have more questions about Nov 5th. Where can I ask them?
In this thread. Ask me anything.
I'm a territory founder and this change makes me regret paying for or purchasing a territory.
Please email me.
I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
In this thread.
I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Will SN ever offer a custodial lightning wallet again?
We may eventually partner with Zebedee and/or Strike and/or whoever to offer a 100% OPTIONAL integrated and regulated custodial wallet, but that will happen well after Nov. 5th.
What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
Why I'm still getting sats in the SN wallet even if I configured the external one?
At the beginning I got some p2p incoming/payment transaction, now only the SN wallet is used.
It’s only a p2p zap if the sender also has a wallet attached
I got it, thanks.
I have an idea to solve this. Replicate the Aqua Wallet model
It's non-custodial, you can still send and receive lightning payments but everything gets settled on a non-custodial liquid bitcoin wallet through submarine swaps.
This model is way more efficient than Muun because submarine fees are basically non-existent in Liquid.
Plus, zapping users to user without using confidential transactions is basically free.
I wonder how the fees would compare. Would there be channel management required by the user?
Not noticeable for zaps ( it can be sent from l-btc address to l-btc address at 0.1 satoshi/vByte )
Also not noticeable for withdrawing or depositing lightning since the submarine swap fees are too small to matter. It just feels like a regular lightning tx fee.
Samson Mow is behind Aqua Wallet and there's no need for channel management because the funds really get settles on bitcoin's sidechain L-BTC.
Liquid is a custodial shitcoin.
Alby / SN integration for sending and receiving could not have been easier.
@siggy47 you use proton wallet right?
Have you successfully attached it for both send and receive, if so how easy was it? I don't tech good.
I use proton for everything BUT the wallet. Sorry. I don't know anything about it. I wonder if @DarthCoin or @supratic know?
No I do not use Proton wallet and I haven't tested. Not sure if I really have interest in it. Is really weird and not really handy to link a wallet to an email. I like to keep that totally separate.
Even for LN addresses, I like to use decoy ones (not my real private domain names).
LN addresses with my own domains are strictly for personal private use, not public.
For public use the custodial ones are just fine and a perfect decoy.
It doesn't have a lightning wallet so it won't work for this. The best send/recieve solutions people have found so far:
Cheers k00b I just got access to it and thought I couldn't find any lightning details. I'll use one of the other solutions much appreciated bud 👊
Finally got around to setting up my wallet with Coinos. So far it is working great!
This guide was very helpful: #694593
Cowboy credits because eCash needed a rebrand 🤣🤣
😆
Looks like I set up my Alby Hub at the right time. I'm sure this will be a change for quite a few people, but it's not untenable.
This is great stuff right here. I'm sure the pressure of managing the SN Wallet is burdensome.
hmm I didn’t get that: What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
old sats will stay Bitcoin and can be withdrawn as before. Newly arriving sats will be converted to Cowboy Credits unless you connect a wallet for auto withdrawal. Cowboy Credits can be zapped to other users but cannot be withdrawn.
Okay, 3 things:
Cowboy hats off!
A question. When I check my external wallet attached to SN, the log always says "connecting" and sometimes I see "error" in red, but I can't identify the error because the log keeps flashing.
WHAT CAN IT BE AND HOW DO I FIX THAT?
PS: I received SATs directly to my external wallet, which appear as Invoice P2P in the notification and in the wallet it appears as:
" SN: Zap so many sats to # of the post ".
So I have no idea what's going on.
fix will be released soon
which wallet are you trying to attach?
I attached Wallet of Satoshi. I had the Blink lightning address, but I was seeing the error and replaced it with WoS. Because I wanted to attach Phoenix, but I don't always have it online, so I don't know if I can attach it.
With WoS I'm getting Zap, but the log is constantly flashing and the word "error" appears sometimes, but I can't figure out what the error is.
My basic feeling on the matter is this is a forced decision that sucks in terms of allowing value for content. The Cowboy Credits are like a shitcoin with no actual value other than a wooden nickle kind in this ecosystem. After all the stuff I've heard from folks about Trump's crypto offering, it is interesting to me that everyone is more receptive to this.
Having said that, I understand the "why" this is being done, but the solution having no Sat related value is not a good long term solution. A better solution might have been to arrange things such that is impossible for stacker news to "KYC" at all. If someone zaps or doesn't zap in such a system, well then, that is of no relevance and is more in keeping with the original vision of Bitcoin.
Serving US customers as a bitcoin custodian - legally - requires KYC and millions of dollars in licenses.
We don't want to KYC you, so we're are going noncustodial.
We've been working on this since late last year. It's been an ongoing discussion here since then.
A reminder to those reading this FAQ and the respective comments:
KYC is fake and gay, with its sole existence being to make fiat offroading as inconvenient to those who know better than to continuously rely on it as humanely possible.
Fuck the government, fuck taxes and fuck fiat especially.
We are going non-custodial so that we don't have to KYC you.
I say this generally, not towards you guys specifically; you've given the community no reason to believe you'd screw us over with that.
Why not make Cowboy hats equivalent to ecash. That's rational in my opinion.
What're your thoughts on Liquidity relays, so people can have sats till they can afford to obtain a channel.
Super Scaler is also an option
We need to know who zaps who which isn’t possible on ecash. We also don’t want to run a mint since it’s taking custody.
You mean using ecash as a buffer for inbound liquidity? These ideas sound good.
Liquidity relay is actually a buffer for LN.
It's one of the new things discussed in Tokyo. A user can receive sats without having to open a channel, and there's a special account created for you that receives these sats, which then opens a channel for the user when the channel capacity is sufficient
@koob just curious why reward sats for territory owners are not cowboy credits? Aren't you in custody of territory owner's money and therefore hitting the money transmitter issues?
Because we are choosing to pay that money to territory owners on daily basis. Even if it were "custody," my understanding is that territory owners are like merchants and SN is like a Shopify and custody of revenues in such cases does not qualify as money transmission.
The distinction is subtle but again, just my understanding, is that the poster/commenter/zapper doesn't not spend with the intent of giving the territory founder money. SN isn't taking custody of money as party A gives it to party B. SN is merely cutting the territory founder into SN's own revenue like it does with rewards - albeit more predictably.
You triggered a lot of active users. By the amount of comments and SATS that this thread gathered it will be very good for all, it seems.
Wait... So what happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
You’ll be surprised
@koob bolt12 receive on the roadmap?
Yes, it absolutely is.
Hello, I followed the steps in the guide that @supratic made. #694593
Thanks once again
Everything is quite simple. Connect the LN address to receive and then use the NWC option from my Coinos.io wallet to send.
It's been left like this, which seems to be all right, however I did a test of sending a Zap and then receiving another one and both moved in the
SN WalletMy question🤔 is if I'm missing something or is it simply because I have to wait for the update to happen? @ek @k00b
🙏🤠 Thanks in advance
p2p zaps are only used when:
Ok then I have to leave my SN wallet at 0 so that it starts deducting from the SATS that I have left in Coinos attached to SN!
and when someone does a Zap for me will it go to the LN address that I have attached?
I tried to do a Zap for you and it gave me an error
Does this essentially make the Wild West mode finished as SN is going law abiding citizen?
Possibly still call it modern western mode now 🤠
I don't think so- why cannot you just connect an LN wallet without creating an account, and Zap? LE will have to find the LN wallet identity
You can already zap without an account, just without the convenience of attached wallets. But enabling them for @anon is planned.
that’s the spirit! 🤘🏼
remember remember...
Can we have a setting to not use or accept the cowboy credits?
Hustle is probably just being a stickler, but he's not sure about those things.
Will there be a way to connect the unified balance nostr e-cash wallet, or is that uncomfortable legal territory as well?
Yep, we'll allow you to choose for people not to be allowed to zap you if your wallet goes offline or runs out of liquidity or a payment can't reach your wallet due to fees. Your content won't be able to move in ranking as a result but if that's your wish we'll grant it.
@ek plans to implement NIP-60 which is the ecash thing.
Surely this will greatly reduce the ease with which new people can start using SN?
Already it seems most content and comments is produced by a relatively small number of contributors, mostly territory owners.
Are territory owners not afraid their investment will be adversely affected?
SN will be useable without an attached wallet. Without an attached wallet, newbs can still earn real bitcoin as rewards, zaps will just take the form of cowboy credits.
If they are, they can email me as stated in the post.
Thanks for reply and to clarify - so CCs can be converted to Sats and transferred to a LN wallet as Sats if a newbie at some stage connects to SNs with a LN wallet?
Sorry to digress.. but what is the meaning of the little 🐎 and 🔫 next to the 🤠 ?
New easter eggs: #721818
Why do they do this? And why that date?
Because we don’t want to break the law.
We are far enough along development wise that date makes sense.
a ok and after that will the system return as usual or not?
Smart
What provoked this change?
P.S: Is that the reason my cowboy hat days stopped being counted?
They are still counted. We just changed the way they are displayed on profiles. You have to hover over the hat to see the days now.
Btw, @K00b I love this approach to "miserable" souls 🤣😂
In this thread.
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Today I was reading about the changes coming on November 5th on the SN platform. I find it interesting that the Cowboy Credit (CC) is introduced and that to be extracted it must be sold in SATs. I don't know what motivated that decision but I'm sure there must be a good reason, I don't doubt it.
In this case, would using CC to incentivize work within the platform be good? Will it be necessary to use P2P to exchange CC for SATs?
Stacker News is different from the rest precisely because of the community incentive, this quote is in the community history:
"Behavior in human communities develops as a result of the incentives humans in the community are given, and existing online communities influence behavior by format, pseudo-reputation, gamification, and moderation. Basically their communities develop as a result of expression limits, rewards backed by nothing, and centralized control. My assumption with Stacker News is that Bitcoin fixes this by having users stake something other than pseudo-reputation, Bitcoin, and earn rewards that are worth something in the external world, Bitcoin."
I'm not judging, questioning or criticizing the decision of the creators of this excellent platform, nor would I want it to be interpreted that way. I'm just trying to understand how it's going to work.
I've attached LNBits to Stacker. Even though my LNBits wallet has a balance of 1000 sats, SN shows 0. I am able to zap people and the zaps go through and my LNBits balance stays at 1000. Seems like a pretty big bug.
Ok, I got "Zap posts failed" at least, so it is not an infinite money glitch.
Still, not sure why the LNBits connection doesn't work since there is no error and it seems it is connected within Wallet settings on SN.
so every time i zap, my external LN wallet needs to be online?
The balance shown on SN is your custodial balance. It sounds like it worked fine.
Apologies for using this thread as a support thread, but I got good answers here before so may as well keep trying.
Is the attached wallet functionality dependent on the device you're on?
I got a different UX while logged onto SN from my phone than my desktop. I set up attached wallets with Alby/NWC from my desktop, and after a bit of jerry-rigging, it all worked fine. I can zap and it will automatically send using my Alby Wallet. I can get zapped and I will automatically receive it into my Alby wallet.
However, when I try to zap from my phone, a lightning invoice appears, which is different behavior from the desktop.
Both devices are accessing SN from Chromium.
We don’t store sending credentials on our server so they need to be input on each device. We should have device sync (encrypted) before Nov 5, but for now sending wallets need to be input on each device they’re used.
Got it thanks.
I'm a bit tired, so I am probably misunderstanding this point. If I have an external receiving wallet, but the person zapping me does not have an external sending wallet, he will send me cowboy credits? This means that even with both types of external wallets linked to my account, I may still end up with cowboy credits?
yes
So, to get rid of these credits, I need to zap someone else with them? Will there be a priority ranking between using those credits or my external wallet whenever credits are still available?
Ha ha this is a clever way to address the myriad of questions you will get but you didn’t answer the most important one that you will likely get.
“What wallets can I use and how the heck do I do this”
I mean if I can figure it out so can everyone else but I don’t think “figure it out” should be the response.
Did you say attach wallet to SN? Here you go :)
I am going to make a post with all these links and forward the sats to you.
I hear you.
Is it possible to dm you for a tech support question?
Yes
How?
Just tried attaching a wallet. Can someone zap me to see if it works please? Also, what do I do with the last 10 sats that in the SN wallet?
So someone just zapped me, but it still went to my SN wallet balance (now 16 sats...) and not my linked wallet...what do I do?
Review your wallet logs as it means the route/payment couldn't be completed.
The might not be very descriptive atm, but ek is working on improvements to them currently.
Thank you.
Will CCs be yellow?
They might be yella. I haven't thought to visualize them yet. Fool's gold is mostly what comes to mind.
So the sats people leave on SN, do they become Reward Sats on Nov 5?
I haven’t paid close attention to the GraphQL mutations for creating items with respect to paying invoices on demand. Is it the case that as long as your account has an external spending wallet configured, the spending wallet should be used automatically and an API client shouldn’t have to do anything with the spending wallet directly?
Edit: I’m asking for my automated bot comments. They’ve been mostly working with my external spending wallet configured, but occasionally they fail and I notice that in my notifications later
For automated things I’d use cowboy credits which won’t require additional work.
If your account doesn’t have enough cowboy credits to perform the action, the response returns an invoice that needs to be paid by the client (we don’t store spending permissions on the server). If the invoice goes unpaid we send that notification.
Thank you, I think that all makes sense. And I should have remembered that spending permissions aren’t stored!
whats this 'real bitcoin'?
you mean to tell me koob, ive been getting fake bitcoin
/s
We will never question your decision to implement this new system. Personally I like it.
What a great faq! Can you point me to the post that describes whats going on with withdrawals being only 70%? Will that continue?
Those aren't withdrawals. Those are zaps. Although we haven't updated the copy to distinguish between them that so it's our fault. i.e. if you withdraw sats from your wallet, there is no such fee.
As of this release, zaps are subject to a 30% sybil fee - up from 10% prior.
Ok, so I have two questions:
I wanted to add, re: investors, for anyone that might be a forum sleuth: startup investors are not as meddlesome as popular media would have you believe. And, even if they were, I own 89% of SN and have not signed away any future voting rights.
Yeeaa🎉🎉🎉
It will cause a lot of confusion for old folks but for noobs the effect of the changes will be negligible. Anyway, thank you SN for changing your old rules.
I'm in my 60s. It's not rocket science.
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Why do you think so?Why do you think so?
Is there no way to show the attached wallet's balance at the top right?
That green zero is very very sad.
lol we were discussing this this morning. We might show a wallet status indicator instead.
I will support and continue to support SN. Cowboy credits I am right here. Please do not fail us. Long live Cowboy credits. Seriously, congratulations SN for introducing this concept.
Good post and explanation. That doesn't mean you won't be getting a flood of unwarranted shit.
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This comment warms my heart
So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?
So zapping will now incur lightning fees?
If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?
Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).
Not necessarily, many wallet connections either require no approval or allow to set a budget within which payments are automatically approved.
Yes, you pay for the route to our node. We pay the network fees for the route to the recipient from the 30% we take for rewards and territory revenue.
For small zaps, it can be a high percentage due to base fees (1 sat fee for 1 sat payments). If you want zero fees, open a channel to SN.
Yes. If your wallet fails too much, we might disable it and you'll receive cowboy credits instead until you fixed your wallet and want to try it again.
You can use Blink for receiving via its lightning address.
If a wallet does not support
sendingreceiving, it's either because we haven't implemented it yet or because they don't support running on the server (like WebLN).I think you mean receiving.
Only if that's what your wallet setup/settings require. Mine doesn't. That's up to you.
That's right. If fees are too high for you, you can always use cowboy credits instead.
If all the recipient's attached wallets fail (you can attach more than one), we will fallback to giving the receiver fee credits unless they indicate they'd prefer to receive nothing if no wallet is available.
Some wallets only support one or the other. For some wallets like Blink, we've only implemented one or the other. We plan on implementing Blink receives soon (@rblb mentioned wanting to work on it this morning).
For non-custodial p2p zaps on SN, we implement an lnproxy like forwarding mechanism. So the only one that would learn your lnd node's identity is SN. That still might not suit your threat model, but it's worth mentioning.