What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So, what happens to the sats in my wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So I don't need to panic because sats in my wallet after Nov. 5th will remain available to withdraw just like they were on Nov. 4th?
Yes, that's right.
If my sats remain available to withdraw, then what changes on Nov. 5th?
To zap with real bitcoin and be zapped with real bitcoin, you'll need to attach an external lightning wallet for sending and receiving respectively:
- If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
- If you want to receive bitcoin when you're zapped on SN, you'll need to attach an external receiving wallet.
If I don't have or want to attach external wallets, what happens to the zaps I send and the zaps I receive after Nov. 5th?
- When you zap someone else, you'll send Cowboy Credits and they'll receive Cowboy Credits.
- When someone zaps you, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
What are "Cowboy Credits"?
SN will accept Cowboy Credits as payment for everything it accepts sats for (e.g. posting fees, territory fees, even donations). You can also send them to other stackers as zaps.
So the only difference between Cowboy Credits and sats is that I can't withdraw Cowboy Credits?
That's right. That's the only difference.
What happens to rewards and territory revenue after Nov. 5th?
Nothing. Rewards and territory revenue will work the same as they do now.
Even if I don't attach an external wallet?
Yes, you'll receive "Reward Sats" which (like all custodial wallet balances) are not to be mistaken as truly yours until you withdraw them. You can also buy Cowboy Credits with Reward Sats if you choose. The only real changes to rewards after Nov. 5th are:
- Reward Sats can't be zapped to other stackers
- Reward Sats are subject to the following magic words, aka terms and conditions:
From time to time, Company may, at its sole discretion, offer and provide prizes or awards of BTC ("Reward Sats") to individuals or entities based on Company initiatives, promotions, or for other reasons determined by Company. Company reserves the right to issue (or not issue) such Reward Sats to any person or entity, at any time, and without prior notice. If you are selected to receive Reward Sats, Company will notify you and will transmit the Reward Sats to your account. In order to claim the Reward Sats, you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice. Failure to provide accurate and complete information may result in the forfeiture of the Reward Sats. You acknowledge and agree that you do not own, and shall have no right, title, or interest in any Reward Sats until such time as the Reward Sats are successfully transferred to your designated Lightning wallet. Until the transfer is completed, all rights to the Reward Sats remain solely with Company. Company makes no guarantee regarding the timing or availability of any such Reward Sats.
Can I zap other stackers my Reward Sats?
No, without an external sending wallet, you can only zap other stackers Cowboy Credits.
Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?
No, they do not.
What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?
If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.
If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
I have more questions about Nov 5th. Where can I ask them?
In this thread. Ask me anything.
I'm a territory founder and this change makes me regret paying for or purchasing a territory.
Please email me.
I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
In this thread.
I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Will SN ever offer a custodial lightning wallet again?
We may eventually partner with Zebedee and/or Strike and/or whoever to offer a 100% OPTIONAL integrated and regulated custodial wallet, but that will happen well after Nov. 5th.
What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
Why I'm still getting sats in the SN wallet even if I configured the external one?
At the beginning I got some p2p incoming/payment transaction, now only the SN wallet is used.
It’s only a p2p zap if the sender also has a wallet attached
I got it, thanks.
I have an idea to solve this. Replicate the Aqua Wallet model
It's non-custodial, you can still send and receive lightning payments but everything gets settled on a non-custodial liquid bitcoin wallet through submarine swaps.
This model is way more efficient than Muun because submarine fees are basically non-existent in Liquid.
Plus, zapping users to user without using confidential transactions is basically free.
I wonder how the fees would compare. Would there be channel management required by the user?
Not noticeable for zaps ( it can be sent from l-btc address to l-btc address at 0.1 satoshi/vByte )
Also not noticeable for withdrawing or depositing lightning since the submarine swap fees are too small to matter. It just feels like a regular lightning tx fee.
Samson Mow is behind Aqua Wallet and there's no need for channel management because the funds really get settles on bitcoin's sidechain L-BTC.
That would be around 100 sats in fee per zap.
So, small zaps are not feasible with a liquid wallet, it could still have its use as fallback for larger transactions though (like paying for a territory, or receiving rewards maybe).
Good to know, thanks.
Liquid is a custodial shitcoin.
Alby / SN integration for sending and receiving could not have been easier.
@siggy47 you use proton wallet right?
Have you successfully attached it for both send and receive, if so how easy was it? I don't tech good.
I use proton for everything BUT the wallet. Sorry. I don't know anything about it. I wonder if @DarthCoin or @supratic know?
No I do not use Proton wallet and I haven't tested. Not sure if I really have interest in it. Is really weird and not really handy to link a wallet to an email. I like to keep that totally separate.
Even for LN addresses, I like to use decoy ones (not my real private domain names).
LN addresses with my own domains are strictly for personal private use, not public.
For public use the custodial ones are just fine and a perfect decoy.
It doesn't have a lightning wallet so it won't work for this. The best send/recieve solutions people have found so far:
Cheers k00b I just got access to it and thought I couldn't find any lightning details. I'll use one of the other solutions much appreciated bud 👊
Finally got around to setting up my wallet with Coinos. So far it is working great!
This guide was very helpful: #694593
Cowboy credits because eCash needed a rebrand 🤣🤣
😆
Looks like I set up my Alby Hub at the right time. I'm sure this will be a change for quite a few people, but it's not untenable.
This is great stuff right here. I'm sure the pressure of managing the SN Wallet is burdensome.
hmm I didn’t get that: What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
old sats will stay Bitcoin and can be withdrawn as before. Newly arriving sats will be converted to Cowboy Credits unless you connect a wallet for auto withdrawal. Cowboy Credits can be zapped to other users but cannot be withdrawn.
Okay, 3 things:
Cowboy hats off!
A question. When I check my external wallet attached to SN, the log always says "connecting" and sometimes I see "error" in red, but I can't identify the error because the log keeps flashing.
WHAT CAN IT BE AND HOW DO I FIX THAT?
PS: I received SATs directly to my external wallet, which appear as Invoice P2P in the notification and in the wallet it appears as:
" SN: Zap so many sats to # of the post ".
So I have no idea what's going on.
fix will be released soon
which wallet are you trying to attach?
I attached Wallet of Satoshi. I had the Blink lightning address, but I was seeing the error and replaced it with WoS. Because I wanted to attach Phoenix, but I don't always have it online, so I don't know if I can attach it.
With WoS I'm getting Zap, but the log is constantly flashing and the word "error" appears sometimes, but I can't figure out what the error is.
We just shipped a fix for the flashing logs. Please try to view them again.
Flashing log is now fixed.
This is the error that appears.
The log explains the error - someone zapped you 1 sat so we attempted to send your wallet 700 msat and your wallet does not accept payments less than 1000 msat. Your wallet has a dust limit and because it's your wallet and not ours, we cannot control that - only you can.
My basic feeling on the matter is this is a forced decision that sucks in terms of allowing value for content. The Cowboy Credits are like a shitcoin with no actual value other than a wooden nickle kind in this ecosystem. After all the stuff I've heard from folks about Trump's crypto offering, it is interesting to me that everyone is more receptive to this.
Having said that, I understand the "why" this is being done, but the solution having no Sat related value is not a good long term solution. A better solution might have been to arrange things such that is impossible for stacker news to "KYC" at all. If someone zaps or doesn't zap in such a system, well then, that is of no relevance and is more in keeping with the original vision of Bitcoin.
Serving US customers as a bitcoin custodian - legally - requires KYC and millions of dollars in licenses.
We don't want to KYC you, so we're are going noncustodial.
We've been working on this since late last year. It's been an ongoing discussion here since then.
A reminder to those reading this FAQ and the respective comments:
KYC is fake and gay, with its sole existence being to make fiat offroading as inconvenient to those who know better than to continuously rely on it as humanely possible.
Fuck the government, fuck taxes and fuck fiat especially.
We are going non-custodial so that we don't have to KYC you.
I say this generally, not towards you guys specifically; you've given the community no reason to believe you'd screw us over with that.
Okay cool. I figure but wanted to clarify just in case.
Why not make Cowboy hats equivalent to ecash. That's rational in my opinion.
What're your thoughts on Liquidity relays, so people can have sats till they can afford to obtain a channel.
Super Scaler is also an option
We need to know who zaps who which isn’t possible on ecash. We also don’t want to run a mint since it’s taking custody.
You mean using ecash as a buffer for inbound liquidity? These ideas sound good.
Liquidity relay is actually a buffer for LN.
It's one of the new things discussed in Tokyo. A user can receive sats without having to open a channel, and there's a special account created for you that receives these sats, which then opens a channel for the user when the channel capacity is sufficient
Sounds like we’re talking about the same thing. What do you mean with relay though? Ecash on nostr?
I meant rebates sorry. Here's a delving post on it: Roasbeef's Delving post on Liquidity Rebates
An audio version of the entire delving post is here
Oh, that’s a generalisation of what I thought. Cool! Didn’t know about that. That should improve lightning UX a lot.
100%
You should listen to the entire audio. Lightning has changed and all the FUDsters are going to have a shit ton to moan about now. Cos users needn't open a channel to use the network anymore. Plus there's GOSSIP 2.0 && BOLT12.
So BULLISH
Liquidity Rebaits**
@koob just curious why reward sats for territory owners are not cowboy credits? Aren't you in custody of territory owner's money and therefore hitting the money transmitter issues?
Because we are choosing to pay that money to territory owners on daily basis. Even if it were "custody," my understanding is that territory owners are like merchants and SN is like a Shopify and custody of revenues in such cases does not qualify as money transmission.
The distinction is subtle but again, just my understanding, is that the poster/commenter/zapper doesn't not spend with the intent of giving the territory founder money. SN isn't taking custody of money as party A gives it to party B. SN is merely cutting the territory founder into SN's own revenue like it does with rewards - albeit more predictably.
Thanks for replying, so in your opinion would a lightning faucet count as a money transmitter? So user A adds a reward and some user claims it.
No imo. The general spirit of most money transmitter laws is consumer protection, ie protection from false claims like "If you give me money, I'll give it to this specific person for you."
Not legal advice, but if it were a donation to the faucet and the faucet chose to "drip" it to people at its own discretion then the faucet is simply spending its own money.
Thanks, thats really helpful!
You triggered a lot of active users. By the amount of comments and SATS that this thread gathered it will be very good for all, it seems.
Wait... So what happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
You’ll be surprised
@koob bolt12 receive on the roadmap?
Yes, it absolutely is.
Hello, I followed the steps in the guide that @supratic made. #694593
Thanks once again
Everything is quite simple. Connect the LN address to receive and then use the NWC option from my Coinos.io wallet to send.
It's been left like this, which seems to be all right, however I did a test of sending a Zap and then receiving another one and both moved in the
SN WalletMy question🤔 is if I'm missing something or is it simply because I have to wait for the update to happen? @ek @k00b
🙏🤠 Thanks in advance
p2p zaps are only used when:
Ok then I have to leave my SN wallet at 0 so that it starts deducting from the SATS that I have left in Coinos attached to SN!
and when someone does a Zap for me will it go to the LN address that I have attached?
I tried to do a Zap for you and it gave me an error
Yes, if the payment succeeds.
SN doesn't run your attached wallet so SN can't make sure your payment succeeds.
Thank you for your patience and time to respond.
So I configured something wrong? Or what can I do to make SN run now with my attached wallet and not use the SN wallet anymore?
No you didn't configure anything wrong as far as I know. We just can't guarantee your attached wallet pays or can pay the invoices we send it because it's operated by coinos - not SN.
There's lot of reasons why a lightning payment might fail:
All of these are mostly out of SN's control with attached wallets.
Thank you very much my friend for your answers and your time @k00b I recharged some more SATS to the wallet and then I was able to make my first two Zap′s to other users from my attached wallet in Coinos, one payment was made immediately and the second failed, however I pressed retry and it worked instantly.
Does this essentially make the Wild West mode finished as SN is going law abiding citizen?
Possibly still call it modern western mode now 🤠
I don't think so- why cannot you just connect an LN wallet without creating an account, and Zap? LE will have to find the LN wallet identity
You can already zap without an account, just without the convenience of attached wallets. But enabling them for @anon is planned.
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What's LE?
Law Enforcement
that’s the spirit! 🤘🏼
remember remember...
Can we have a setting to not use or accept the cowboy credits?
Hustle is probably just being a stickler, but he's not sure about those things.
Will there be a way to connect the unified balance nostr e-cash wallet, or is that uncomfortable legal territory as well?
Yep, we'll allow you to choose for people not to be allowed to zap you if your wallet goes offline or runs out of liquidity or a payment can't reach your wallet due to fees. Your content won't be able to move in ranking as a result but if that's your wish we'll grant it.
@ek plans to implement NIP-60 which is the ecash thing.
Surely this will greatly reduce the ease with which new people can start using SN?
Already it seems most content and comments is produced by a relatively small number of contributors, mostly territory owners.
Are territory owners not afraid their investment will be adversely affected?
SN will be useable without an attached wallet. Without an attached wallet, newbs can still earn real bitcoin as rewards, zaps will just take the form of cowboy credits.
If they are, they can email me as stated in the post.
Thanks for reply and to clarify - so CCs can be converted to Sats and transferred to a LN wallet as Sats if a newbie at some stage connects to SNs with a LN wallet?
No CCs cannot be converted into sats.
Bummer.
Because the government regulators don't allow you to custody Sats for users of the platform?
The tentacles of the fiat debt slavery bankers cartel are extensive and suffocating.
Yes, we cannot custody money for other people without KYCing them. I'd rather kill myself making noncustodial stuff work well than require stackers to KYC.
Could you move SN HQ to a more favorable jurisdiction so you don't have to do that?
It doesn’t matter where HQ is, it matters where your customers are
Yes understand, and I hope it can work.
They will try everything to stop us having the freedom to choose an alternative to their parasitic fiat monopoly.
We just have to fight back constructively and you are doing a great job of that.
Sorry to digress.. but what is the meaning of the little 🐎 and 🔫 next to the 🤠 ?
New easter eggs: #721818
Why do they do this? And why that date?
Because we don’t want to break the law.
We are far enough along development wise that date makes sense.
a ok and after that will the system return as usual or not?
what
😂
Smart
What provoked this change?
P.S: Is that the reason my cowboy hat days stopped being counted?
They are still counted. We just changed the way they are displayed on profiles. You have to hover over the hat to see the days now.
Btw, @K00b I love this approach to "miserable" souls 🤣😂
In this thread.
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Today I was reading about the changes coming on November 5th on the SN platform. I find it interesting that the Cowboy Credit (CC) is introduced and that to be extracted it must be sold in SATs. I don't know what motivated that decision but I'm sure there must be a good reason, I don't doubt it.
In this case, would using CC to incentivize work within the platform be good? Will it be necessary to use P2P to exchange CC for SATs?
Stacker News is different from the rest precisely because of the community incentive, this quote is in the community history:
"Behavior in human communities develops as a result of the incentives humans in the community are given, and existing online communities influence behavior by format, pseudo-reputation, gamification, and moderation. Basically their communities develop as a result of expression limits, rewards backed by nothing, and centralized control. My assumption with Stacker News is that Bitcoin fixes this by having users stake something other than pseudo-reputation, Bitcoin, and earn rewards that are worth something in the external world, Bitcoin."
I'm not judging, questioning or criticizing the decision of the creators of this excellent platform, nor would I want it to be interpreted that way. I'm just trying to understand how it's going to work.
I've attached LNBits to Stacker. Even though my LNBits wallet has a balance of 1000 sats, SN shows 0. I am able to zap people and the zaps go through and my LNBits balance stays at 1000. Seems like a pretty big bug.
Ok, I got "Zap posts failed" at least, so it is not an infinite money glitch.
Still, not sure why the LNBits connection doesn't work since there is no error and it seems it is connected within Wallet settings on SN.
so every time i zap, my external LN wallet needs to be online?
Yes
And the recipient's (author of the content I am zapping) wallet needs to be online too?
If you want them to receive sats? Yes.
What if they are offline, when I am zapping? What's the UX?
For you, no difference in UX. They'll just receive Cowboy Credits.
You could try Coinos.io in the interim if needed in which their backend is always on
Did you check your wallet logs?
The balance shown on SN is your custodial balance. It sounds like it worked fine.
Apologies for using this thread as a support thread, but I got good answers here before so may as well keep trying.
Is the attached wallet functionality dependent on the device you're on?
I got a different UX while logged onto SN from my phone than my desktop. I set up attached wallets with Alby/NWC from my desktop, and after a bit of jerry-rigging, it all worked fine. I can zap and it will automatically send using my Alby Wallet. I can get zapped and I will automatically receive it into my Alby wallet.
However, when I try to zap from my phone, a lightning invoice appears, which is different behavior from the desktop.
Both devices are accessing SN from Chromium.
We don’t store sending credentials on our server so they need to be input on each device. We should have device sync (encrypted) before Nov 5, but for now sending wallets need to be input on each device they’re used.
Got it thanks.
Was wondering these same things appreciate that stackers
I'm a bit tired, so I am probably misunderstanding this point. If I have an external receiving wallet, but the person zapping me does not have an external sending wallet, he will send me cowboy credits? This means that even with both types of external wallets linked to my account, I may still end up with cowboy credits?
yes
So, to get rid of these credits, I need to zap someone else with them? Will there be a priority ranking between using those credits or my external wallet whenever credits are still available?
Where there is a clear advantage for you to use one or the other, we will do that. Where it's ambiguous, we will have a setting letting you express your preference.
Ok, great. Thanks. Hope it'll be a smooth ride and you can get back to non-wallet related stuff soon... must have been quite the adventure.
Thanks. It has been. There's nothing more draining for a founder than working on something that no one wants, but it's exciting to be nearly done.
For what it's worth, these efforts might indirectly pay off for all the external wallet services that use NWC, etc. Often a chicken and egg problem, you've created demand for stable ways to connect external wallets hence incentivizing those services to develop their tools. Just guessing here.
Looking forward to the territory and subterritory stuff.
Celebrate a bit first though. Have a beer or burger on me at Fat Sal's if they are still around. Last time I was in Austin was ages ago. Might be there in December for work.
Thanks! That's my hope with lightning wallets too and I cannot wait to give territories their due finally.
I'll be taking an overdue vacation once this is all done.
I want SN to stick around, so by association, I want this change.
Ha ha this is a clever way to address the myriad of questions you will get but you didn’t answer the most important one that you will likely get.
“What wallets can I use and how the heck do I do this”
I mean if I can figure it out so can everyone else but I don’t think “figure it out” should be the response.
Did you say attach wallet to SN? Here you go :)
I am going to make a post with all these links and forward the sats to you.
Definitely, go for it! I did not think about that! Probably because not sure what else to add or how to present the guides as a whole.
There are some missing, WebLN, CLN and LNC that I'm still working on
How did you get the links to be represented by the title of the post?
I did not do that. I just posted the links and then copy pasted the title beside.
But would be handy to know how to do that for future reference.
#723140
Did you say _attach wallet to SN_? Here you go :) - [Easily attach wallet to SEND & RECEIVE sats from SN with Coinos.io and HODL](https://stacker.news/items/694593) - [Install, Run, Publish & Connect 𝚙𝚑𝚘𝚎𝚗𝚒𝚡𝚍 to SEND/RECEIVE sats to/from SN](https://stacker.news/items/695912) - [How to Attach Your self-hosted LNbits wallet to SEND/RECEIVE sats to/from SN](https://stacker.news/items/697132) - [How to attach your LND node to RECEIVE bitcoin from SN via ThunderHub](https://stacker.news/items/704693) - [How to attach your Blink.sv wallet to SEND sats to SN with a Blink's API key](https://stacker.news/items/705629) - [How to Connect your LN node to SEND/RECEIVE sats to/from SN via NWC with AlbyHub](https://stacker.news/items/698497)Can I somehow do the phoenixd thing with custodial phoenix? Like the Bolt12 lno1... thing just like with an ln-url?
You mean with the phoenix mobile app?
We plan to support bolt12 as a receiving method[*], but there is no programmatic sending method supported by the app.
it won't ship for a couple months though ↩
I might just wait for bolt12 as a receiving method and accumulate CC in the meantime
Is there one you recommend works best with iPhone?
I hear you.
Is it possible to dm you for a tech support question?
Yes
How?
chatin the footerYou can also dm me on nostr (npub in my profile) or X.
You can also email me
k00b@stacker.newsJust tried attaching a wallet. Can someone zap me to see if it works please? Also, what do I do with the last 10 sats that in the SN wallet?
So someone just zapped me, but it still went to my SN wallet balance (now 16 sats...) and not my linked wallet...what do I do?
Review your wallet logs as it means the route/payment couldn't be completed.
The might not be very descriptive atm, but ek is working on improvements to them currently.
Both WebLN (send) and Lightning Address (receive) are setup on my end. The wallet works for manual withdrawals, but is there a big button somewhere to tell SN to pay from my external wallet and not from the SN wallet?
Also the Lightning Address wallet only has a withdrawal threshold at the moment, do I need to set this to 1sat to get every payment routed to my Lightning address?
No, there is not. We will first try the custodial wallet. If the payment is too large for it, we will try your external wallet. (We don't do partial payments yet.)
OK so the way I have this setup now with a send and receive wallet setup, it should gracefully move over on Nov 5th without further action?
Yes, you're all set
burger zap
OK. I know you guys got a lot on but I don't feel like this is at all clear. Do you have a UX plan to rollout / indicate to people if they are "all set" after the 5th? I guess it is not a major issue given that there will be cowboy credits still, but could be super confusing for people who are new to lightning / don't know the options.
If you have a receive wallet attached and someone zaps you from their own wallet, we try to send sats straight to your wallet ("p2p zap"). If that doesn't work for some reason, they will go into the custodial wallet as if they used custodial sats. The threshold then determines when a withdrawal should automatically be triggered.
After Nov 5th, these automated withdrawals will no longer exist since any sats that you couldn't receive into your own wallet (because you don't have one attached or there was an error) will become cowboy credits that you can't withdraw. The exception are the sats that you accumulated before Nov 5th. They will always be there for you to withdraw.
We might simply set the threshold to 0 after that date so there will be one last automated withdrawal to empty your custodial wallet.
Big event. K00b should film this with a big red button for the YT podcast.
@k00b @ek continuing from the thread, here is one rough idea about how you could bring this to the user's attention in the UX and motivate attachment of wallets and illustrate what it means.
The "attach wallet" page is quite complex for someone who does not know much (what does NWC, LNC, and LNBITS mean to a newbie?) so there could be some useful tooltips, alerts, or recommendations in there too.
I am sure you guys are onto it, but happy to throw in some design feedback as you work through it!
Thank you.
Will CCs be yellow?
They might be yella. I haven't thought to visualize them yet. Fool's gold is mostly what comes to mind.
So the sats people leave on SN, do they become Reward Sats on Nov 5?
Yes effectively.
I misunderstood things when I asked the first question.
If anything, when the balances are shown together, CCs are already green and reward/legacy sats should be yellow, for cash and gold haha.
I haven’t paid close attention to the GraphQL mutations for creating items with respect to paying invoices on demand. Is it the case that as long as your account has an external spending wallet configured, the spending wallet should be used automatically and an API client shouldn’t have to do anything with the spending wallet directly?
Edit: I’m asking for my automated bot comments. They’ve been mostly working with my external spending wallet configured, but occasionally they fail and I notice that in my notifications later
For automated things I’d use cowboy credits which won’t require additional work.
If your account doesn’t have enough cowboy credits to perform the action, the response returns an invoice that needs to be paid by the client (we don’t store spending permissions on the server). If the invoice goes unpaid we send that notification.
Thank you, I think that all makes sense. And I should have remembered that spending permissions aren’t stored!
whats this 'real bitcoin'?
you mean to tell me koob, ive been getting fake bitcoin
/s
We will never question your decision to implement this new system. Personally I like it.
What a great faq! Can you point me to the post that describes whats going on with withdrawals being only 70%? Will that continue?
Those aren't withdrawals. Those are zaps. Although we haven't updated the copy to distinguish between them that so it's our fault. i.e. if you withdraw sats from your wallet, there is no such fee.
As of this release, zaps are subject to a 30% sybil fee - up from 10% prior.
Ok, so I have two questions:
I wanted to add, re: investors, for anyone that might be a forum sleuth: startup investors are not as meddlesome as popular media would have you believe. And, even if they were, I own 89% of SN and have not signed away any future voting rights.
Fuck yes
:Thumbs up: to question 1.
To question 2, if no route can be found, and a cowboy credit is created instead, where does the sat go?
I will make an educated guess that the sat stays in the zapper's wallet, then the zappee receives +1 CC and the zapper is deduced -1 CC. Is that correct?
The sat is paid to SN, which in turn creates a cowboy credit and assigns it to the receiver.
If the sender has CCs in their wallet, rather than creating a CC, we'll just transfer it to the receiver like sats are transferred today.
Yeeaa🎉🎉🎉
It will cause a lot of confusion for old folks but for noobs the effect of the changes will be negligible. Anyway, thank you SN for changing your old rules.
I'm in my 60s. It's not rocket science.
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Why do you think so?Why do you think so?
Is there no way to show the attached wallet's balance at the top right?
That green zero is very very sad.
lol we were discussing this this morning. We might show a wallet status indicator instead.
I will support and continue to support SN. Cowboy credits I am right here. Please do not fail us. Long live Cowboy credits. Seriously, congratulations SN for introducing this concept.
Good post and explanation. That doesn't mean you won't be getting a flood of unwarranted shit.
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This comment warms my heart
Well ... we are no longer providing financial services.
So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?
So zapping will now incur lightning fees?
If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?
Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).
Not necessarily, many wallet connections either require no approval or allow to set a budget within which payments are automatically approved.
Yes, you pay for the route to our node. We pay the network fees for the route to the recipient from the 30% we take for rewards and territory revenue.
For small zaps, it can be a high percentage due to base fees (1 sat fee for 1 sat payments). If you want zero fees, open a channel to SN.
Yes. If your wallet fails too much, we might disable it and you'll receive cowboy credits instead until you fixed your wallet and want to try it again.
You can use Blink for receiving via its lightning address.
If a wallet does not support
sendingreceiving, it's either because we haven't implemented it yet or because they don't support running on the server (like WebLN).I think you mean receiving.
thanks, fixed
Only if that's what your wallet setup/settings require. Mine doesn't. That's up to you.
That's right. If fees are too high for you, you can always use cowboy credits instead.
If all the recipient's attached wallets fail (you can attach more than one), we will fallback to giving the receiver fee credits unless they indicate they'd prefer to receive nothing if no wallet is available.
Some wallets only support one or the other. For some wallets like Blink, we've only implemented one or the other. We plan on implementing Blink receives soon (@rblb mentioned wanting to work on it this morning).
For non-custodial p2p zaps on SN, we implement an lnproxy like forwarding mechanism. So the only one that would learn your lnd node's identity is SN. That still might not suit your threat model, but it's worth mentioning.
My opinion on the motivation for this aside, the UX for wallet connections simply isn't there to support this...
So I've posted a $300 bounty for SN to integrate NIP-69 and NIP-68, which offer far superior UX, better security, and scalability than is currently possible with other wallet connections.
Perhaps others can chip in...
https://github.com/stackernews/stacker.news/issues/1478
Can you give us an idea of how this implementation would improve the UX? It would be great if it simplifies the process. Would a stacker need to have nostr keys, or would that be unnecessary (like NWC)?
I'm involuntarily off-grid again, so apologies for the brevity...
This flips the nostr pairing scheme on its head vs NWC and adds a new user property, so that you simply provide a lightning addresses and approve (or deny) the request in your wallet
(The wallet has nostr keys for communication, you don't have to yourself in the social sense, or even know about it)
NIP-69 you can think of like nostr-native bolt12 or lnurl-p, and NIP-68 is the reverse to complete the flow.
There's more detailed justification in the respective NIPs and conversations, but here's a video clip: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1529#issuecomment-2400364120
Thanks
Bounty should be denominated in sats. Just sayin
Lol 😂 !
How are all these asking you even a question after reading this? You've already declared that it's just imposed. Hey, don't take me wrong, sometimes it's better to impose good things.
I don't have any question because all sorted out before in the conversations and a few guides.
Initially, I thought it would be very difficult but it's as easy as it can be.
But, I will be with the dying/decaying SN wallet until the last moment to console it and when RIP, I'll pay my homage and then only attach. (Though I've done it before).
Thank you @k00b for making us learn the true sovereignty. Long live Zaps and Long live SN!
Will the linked wallet become the only way to withdraw after Nov 5? If the amount zapped into account is below the auto withdrawal limit or the fee is above the set percentage, or if the withdrawal fails for any reason, will the sats be converted to CCs with no recourse?
It could be. We haven't decided on that yet.
We'll expose a setting for you to tell us what to do when your receiving wallet fails to receive a zap.
The setting will allow you to choose between: receiving CCs or nothing.
how generous of you ))
lmao :)
I found this hilarious, too.
He knows the crowd well.
I gave my SN lightning address to bet on US President election results before this deadline announcement was posted. Feels like a rug pull.
Is your LND via Tor working? Keep getting "(2) failed to create test invoice: No connection established. Last error: undefined"
We are working on better errors to diagnose these problems. Our Tor support is unreliable and I'm sorry.
Forcing users to open clearnet ports is dangerous and is similar to kyc (((
Come on man. I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm sorry Tor isn't working for you. I hope we can get it fixed soon.
fwiw I'm getting the same error message, and I don't think I'm connected via Tor.
Currently just using Alby Hub Desktop.
Are you using NWC? What kind of lightning node is Alby Hub connected to?
Yes, NWC. I assume it's connected to the default lightning node that gets installed when you install the software.
With my Alby node I was already able to:
That error suggests the NWC string might be invalid. Was this with a brand new NWC string?
Wait a minute. What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on November 5th?
You can find them at the bottom of any pint of Cherry Garcia at participating grocery stores.
In order to be fully attached to the alby extension, these two must be active?
Are you using Alby hub? If so, you can set up a NWC send and receive attachment very easily.
I don't have an Alby Hub yet. I like to wait a while to find out more about the pros and cons, as well as other people's experiences. Maybe with this change in SN I'll make the switch sooner. But I'd like to know if it's possible to be on SN and send/receive sats with just the Alby extension.
@0xbitcoiner please remember, that Alby Extension is just an interface to a lightning wallet/node.
Looks like you are currently using our legacy custodial wallet, we are slowly migrating our users to self-custodial setup with Alby Hub.
Alby Extension here can be used to send sats via WebLN, but for receiving you need a Lightning Address, which comes with our account (it's not hosted by the extension).
Hope that helps!
Yes, I did! Thanks anyway. By the way, is there a free version of Alby Hub?
It's open source so you can run it yourself for free.
I know that, but I don't want to have a device connected to the internet 24 hours a day. :)
It would be interesting to see Alby Hub do a fee based payment model. Like, 10% of all receives until they've collected their 21,000 sats.
I know you can receive very well through the lightning address. I did that for a while. I am also sure it would work for sending through WebLN, but I have no experience doing that.
I noticed that I received your previous zap in my alby wallet. It would be cool to go to the alby wallet and the SN wallet! 🤠
You should've recieved 31 Sats. ;)
I don't think so!
43 - (43*0.3) = 30.1 - LN fee
I don't understand? Like a double payment? Yeah, I would like that too!
Yes! Ahahahhhh
Now I only see the SN balance going down, it never goes up!
Yes, it is possible. I have tried it and works perfectly. But you have to pay one extra sat fee to Alby extension. For example, a comment will cost you now 2 sats.
Oh, how come it charges more when paid with the extension?
I think they mean network fees
The solution is to always have a few sats in your SN wallet. 🤠
Yea
I'm confused with as this as well. Alby NWC gives me one string, and the NWC setting on SN needs two strings one for send and one for receive... So I just set my NWC as send.. and my receive I used my LN address to my node... So... Am.. am I doing this right?
You need to connect to SN twice. Then you get two strings. One should be set to read-only. See #698497.
Thank you, this is perfect. I think I got it sorted now.
I can't help you with your question, @ek knows for sure.
Yes, for example
So will the ln address for my stacker news account directly receive sats to my receive method (and expose my node if connected for receive) similar to how the getalby connection works, or does it first go to stacker news node, then fwd to my receive wallet method ?
On an opt-in basis, we will provide an lnproxy like method to protect your receiving wallet's pubkey at a cost of 10% of the payment amount.
Ok, so if not opted in, directly fwded to receive method. Or, opt into the proxy for additional privacy at a fee. ty!
Exactly!
A big big shout out for the writing style.
Man, I have all the questions because I hardly understand but I know someone and I'll hire him for all of this.
Just tell me if there are any security tradeoffs if I get it done by someone else?
I've learnt that Sats will be the future money so I don't wanna take a risk. Can I believe someone or I learn it how to do?
Yes, that someone else will have access to your money.
There are a bunch of horses and guns waiting to be distributed! 🔫 🐎 🤠
But wait, what is going to bake cowboy credits, and how are they going to be released to the market? Limited supply or infinite brrrr?
I think they will be created in real time, when it's necessary, and burned when the rewards are paid.
Yep, 1 sat creates 1 CC. 1CC in rewards creates 1 sat.
Pardon my ignorance, but what do the horse and pistol icons mean, please?
Do 🤠 credits use the cash e-cash protocol?
No, they do not. :)
*cashu
Has anyone tested any of these attached Bitcoin wallets on iPhone? I primarily use SN on an “app” (Home Screen shortcut) on my iPhone.
I don’t want to need to use my laptop for lightning.
You could try Coinos.io on just iPhone.
Has Coinos been responding slow to anyone else today?
Currently taking tens of seconds to switch between pages at times.
Also trying to Attach NWC for coinos to SN today is timing out.
I’m watching this BTC Sessions video trying to learn https://youtu.be/GADLcQ4g8DU?si=h2iWTxvhAVwyDzdY
For me Coinos is working quickly now.
Here is separate related post: #724652
Perfect this is the answer I was looking for, and hey @supratic already has a guide! #694593
Awesome!
If you're interested in bitcoin's pilgrimage of self-hosting a bitcoin and lightning node at home, I'd highly recommend doing that and adding Alby Hub for NWC.
Alternatively, for 10.5k sats/mo Alby will run a non-custodial node with NWC for you.
If you're not in the US and don't want to self-host, Blink provides an open source mobile custodial wallet.
We'll be adding many more wallet options as we go, so even if none of these options make sense right now, hopefully one will at some point.
Personally, on iOS and on my laptop, I use NWC with a Start9 server I run at home.
Can you please give a brief how-to tutorial on setting up NWC with Start9?
Don't bother, I've found it
why?
One reason may be that custodial services are under assault lately, so this is a safer solution long-term.
Bingo ringo
You can only legally serve US customers custodially if you KYC them and pay millions of dollars for licenses.
This is outrageous sir
https://i.postimg.cc/PJ4XgMrP/bitcoiners-money-transmitter.jpg
i didnt even get to vote! 😅
OPEN FOR BUSINESS - swaps CC to $$ : #723069
This is great! Can you do the other way around too? I give you CC and you send sats? LOL
yes sure... 2 CC for 1 sat
Cool, I should have asked in the ad itself!
Is all of this just weasel words for the lawyers, or will you actually bookkeep and show two separate balances, one for "real sats" and one for "cowboy credits"?
Or how do you prevent one "cowboy credit" being withdrawn as a real sat after the deadline?
They'll each get their own balance.
Mr. @k00b, what are the wallets that we could use to attach to SN?
They are here: https://stacker.news/settings/wallets
We'll be adding more wallet types as time goes on but that's what we've got right now.
Is there an attached bitcoin wallet you recommend best for iPhone experience?
You need to attach a lightning wallet, one of those provided in your
wallet > attach wallethttps://stacker.news/settings/walletsLooking for guidance? Read here #723140
Good summary. Thank you. The only thing that's not clear to me: If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?
And if it's the former, I guess a related question is, why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?
Less urgently, the folks behind Zebedee are straight-up thieves, liars, and con-artists, so I really hope you don't put yourself in a position where they could financially screw you.
We're still working on these final details, but they'd likely come from your attached wallet unless you've indicated you'd like to send Cowboy Credits instead.
They wouldn't choose to. But they might if:
I can cope with a third party taking advantage of SN, but I will not stand for a third party taking advantage of any stacker by proxy. We will only partner with a third party custodian if I'm sure I can defend/save stackers from the third party should I need to.
They can only be withdrawn, not used for anything else. If you want to zap someone, you need to have cowboy credits or a wallet attached.
The SN wallet for sats essentially ceases to exist, the sats in it can only be withdrawn.
This will create a lot of confusing among stackers.
I repeat: you should separate "upvotes" from "zaps".
Not to take the unpopular opinion, but stacker news was about using bitcoin and zapping them back and forth.
That is what made is so unique.
Not that cowboy credits will be different, just something we have to get used to.
How will the algorithm and everything work with cowboy credits and zaps?
@ek @k00b
Exactly the same. CCs are sats as far as the algorithm is concerned since every CC was once a real sat. CCs become real sats again only through rewards.
Ah, okay.
So nothing really changes, except we have to attach a wallet.
So would I have two different values if I just keep my btc on here?
In case you do not want to attach an external wallet, swaps between stackers will be in place.
I dont really want to attach an external wallet....
Eventually I will have to take these btc out of here, just am not in such a hurry.
If cowboy credits will equal 1 sat, I wont really mind using CC, either.
Just something I will have to get used to.
Stacker News is, and was, such a special place on the internet. Sats to post, sats to comment... it is the best.
I don't want cowboy credits. I want to send and receive real sats. In my opinion it's easier the 'old way' than having to attach multiple wallets. Just to send and receive.
Receiving is easier (i guess) through an LN address but what about sending? It somewhat complicates the UI imo.
Swaps will start flowing... #723069
This got me thinking, "kyc?" LN Invoice is great.
It's a lawyer's defensive language. We've spent the last 8 months building toward this so that it is both legal and doesn't require KYC.
This is the way!
I hope most stackers will level up and continue using SN.
Thanks for the updates and keeping SN beyond reproach.
I have a very good idea as to why you are making this changes. Which is why I am welcoming this modification. Thank you.
If I attach a wallet that enables me to receive only, can I zap other Stackers real Bitcoin with the zaps I obtain even if I don’t have an external sending wallet?
No, you need an external sending wallet to zap real sats
Roger, thanks.
Why do you have a gun to your name?
because I am a real cowboy, zap zap!
Thanks! I understand your reasons, so I will do my best with the transition. @supratic did a great job to make things easier for noobs like me.
So interesting to see the evolution of the a Bitcoin space. A coincidence this lines up with the Nov 5th election?
I am a bit new to all this technology
After creating my account here, I used the Stacker News wallet for the 'Lightning address' of my Nostr account - and was happy with that very simple setup.
Will that new change impacts the Nostr setup?
So if you don't want to receive Cowboy Credits when you're zapped on nostr, you'll want to either:
I thought original post said the username@stacker.news ln-url will continue working as a forwarding method?
It will! See (1)
Which means that we will send payments made to your lightning address to your attached wallet.
Nice development
I am a bit slow on the uptake here.
So if I have sats on here, I can still zap sats, without an external wallet?
Or the sats will just sit until I withdraw?
And you cant withdraw cowboy credits, right?
No, not after Nov 5th. All sats for payments must come from your own wallet after that date.
Yes
Yes, no withdrawals of cowboy credits.
Can you just keep mine open? lol
What do you mean? It will stay open for you to withdraw the existing sats but you can't add any more to it. The existing wallet limit basically goes from 100k to 0.
Lol. Great conversation
I’m gonna miss the old way
me too fellow stacker
SN elects!
Who are the electors?
Are we not thought to be part of SN?
BTW, I understand it's done for the defense so, it's good.
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I mean, look at the phrasing in the subject line.
Double wammy.
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Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
Ahahah! 🤠
Damn. Must have missed that… lol
lol
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No, as stated.
If Reward Sats required KYC we wouldn't provide them at all.
thanks, sorry, I posted the question b4 I scrolled down and found the answer! You answered it b4 I deleted my question :D
I was the "not limited to" bit that made me wonder...