SN elects to go noncustodial on Nov. 5th - FAQ & AMA \ stacker news

SN elects to go noncustodial on Nov. 5th - FAQ & AMA

What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?

Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.

So, what happens to the sats in my wallet on Nov. 5th?

Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.

So I don't need to panic because sats in my wallet after Nov. 5th will remain available to withdraw just like they were on Nov. 4th?

Yes, that's right.

If my sats remain available to withdraw, then what changes on Nov. 5th?

To zap with real bitcoin and be zapped with real bitcoin, you'll need to attach an external lightning wallet for sending and receiving respectively:

If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
If you want to receive bitcoin when you're zapped on SN, you'll need to attach an external receiving wallet.

If I don't have or want to attach external wallets, what happens to the zaps I send and the zaps I receive after Nov. 5th?

When you zap someone else, you'll send Cowboy Credits and they'll receive Cowboy Credits.
When someone zaps you, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.

What are "Cowboy Credits"?

SN will accept Cowboy Credits as payment for everything it accepts sats for (e.g. posting fees, territory fees, even donations). You can also send them to other stackers as zaps.

So the only difference between Cowboy Credits and sats is that I can't withdraw Cowboy Credits?

That's right. That's the only difference.

What happens to rewards and territory revenue after Nov. 5th?

Nothing. Rewards and territory revenue will work the same as they do now.

Even if I don't attach an external wallet?

Yes, you'll receive "Reward Sats" which (like all custodial wallet balances) are not to be mistaken as truly yours until you withdraw them. You can also buy Cowboy Credits with Reward Sats if you choose. The only real changes to rewards after Nov. 5th are:

Reward Sats can't be zapped to other stackers
Reward Sats are subject to the following magic words, aka terms and conditions:
- From time to time, Company may, at its sole discretion, offer and provide prizes or awards of BTC ("Reward Sats") to individuals or entities based on Company initiatives, promotions, or for other reasons determined by Company. Company reserves the right to issue (or not issue) such Reward Sats to any person or entity, at any time, and without prior notice. If you are selected to receive Reward Sats, Company will notify you and will transmit the Reward Sats to your account. In order to claim the Reward Sats, you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice. Failure to provide accurate and complete information may result in the forfeiture of the Reward Sats. You acknowledge and agree that you do not own, and shall have no right, title, or interest in any Reward Sats until such time as the Reward Sats are successfully transferred to your designated Lightning wallet. Until the transfer is completed, all rights to the Reward Sats remain solely with Company. Company makes no guarantee regarding the timing or availability of any such Reward Sats.

Can I zap other stackers my Reward Sats?

No, without an external sending wallet, you can only zap other stackers Cowboy Credits.

Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?

No, they do not.

What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?

If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.

If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.

I have more questions about Nov 5th. Where can I ask them?

In this thread. Ask me anything.

I'm a territory founder and this change makes me regret paying for or purchasing a territory.

Please email me.

I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?

In this thread.

I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?

In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.

Will SN ever offer a custodial lightning wallet again?

We may eventually partner with Zebedee and/or Strike and/or whoever to offer a 100% OPTIONAL integrated and regulated custodial wallet, but that will happen well after Nov. 5th.

What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?

Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 37m

Surely this will greatly reduce the ease with which new people can start using SN? Already it seems most content and comments is produced by a relatively small number of contributors, mostly territory owners. Are territory owners not afraid their investment will be adversely affected?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 34m

SN will be useable without an attached wallet. Without an attached wallet, newbs can still earn real bitcoin as rewards, zaps will just take the form of cowboy credits.

Are territory owners not afraid their investment will be adversely affected?

If they are, they can email me as stated in the post.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheWildHustle 1h

Can we have a setting to not use or accept the cowboy credits?

Hustle is probably just being a stickler, but he's not sure about those things.

Will there be a way to connect the unified balance nostr e-cash wallet, or is that uncomfortable legal territory as well?

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 1h

Yep, we'll allow you to choose for people not to be allowed to zap you if your wallet goes offline or runs out of liquidity or a payment can't reach your wallet due to fees. Your content won't be able to move in ranking as a result but if that's your wish we'll grant it.

@ek plans to implement NIP-60 which is the ecash thing.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @SwapMarket 3h

Will the linked wallet become the only way to withdraw after Nov 5? If the amount zapped into account is below the auto withdrawal limit or the fee is above the set percentage, or if the withdrawal fails for any reason, will the sats be converted to CCs with no recourse?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 3h

Will the linked wallet become the only way to withdraw after Nov 5

It could be. We haven't decided on that yet.

will the sats be converted to CCs with no recourse?

We'll expose a setting for you to tell us what to do when your receiving wallet fails to receive a zap.

The setting will allow you to choose between: receiving CCs or nothing.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 2h

how generous of you ))

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @jddska 4h

remember remember...

33 sats \ 4 replies \ @Msd0457890 5h

Why do they do this? And why that date?

115 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b OP 4h

Because we don’t want to break the law.

We are far enough along development wise that date makes sense.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Msd0457890 4h

a ok and after that will the system return as usual or not?

8 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 4h

what

18 sats \ 0 replies \ @felipe 1h

😂

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @justanumber 8h

Sorry to digress.. but what is the meaning of the little 🐎 and 🔫 next to the 🤠 ?

99 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 8h

New easter eggs: #721818

117 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 8h

Smart

154 sats \ 2 replies \ @ch0k1 14h

What provoked this change?

P.S: Is that the reason my cowboy hat days stopped being counted?

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 10h

They are still counted. We just changed the way they are displayed on profiles. You have to hover over the hat to see the days now.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @ch0k1 14h

Btw, @K00b I love this approach to "miserable" souls 🤣😂

I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?

In this thread.

I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?

In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.

47 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 15h

415 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 20h

Apologies for using this thread as a support thread, but I got good answers here before so may as well keep trying.

Is the attached wallet functionality dependent on the device you're on?

I got a different UX while logged onto SN from my phone than my desktop. I set up attached wallets with Alby/NWC from my desktop, and after a bit of jerry-rigging, it all worked fine. I can zap and it will automatically send using my Alby Wallet. I can get zapped and I will automatically receive it into my Alby wallet.

However, when I try to zap from my phone, a lightning invoice appears, which is different behavior from the desktop.

Both devices are accessing SN from Chromium.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 20h

We don’t store sending credentials on our server so they need to be input on each device. We should have device sync (encrypted) before Nov 5, but for now sending wallets need to be input on each device they’re used.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 20h

Got it thanks.

109 sats \ 2 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 21h

I haven’t paid close attention to the GraphQL mutations for creating items with respect to paying invoices on demand. Is it the case that as long as your account has an external spending wallet configured, the spending wallet should be used automatically and an API client shouldn’t have to do anything with the spending wallet directly?

Edit: I’m asking for my automated bot comments. They’ve been mostly working with my external spending wallet configured, but occasionally they fail and I notice that in my notifications later

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 20h

For automated things I’d use cowboy credits which won’t require additional work.

If your account doesn’t have enough cowboy credits to perform the action, the response returns an invoice that needs to be paid by the client (we don’t store spending permissions on the server). If the invoice goes unpaid we send that notification.

112 sats \ 0 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 20h

Thank you, I think that all makes sense. And I should have remembered that spending permissions aren’t stored!

191 sats \ 4 replies \ @OneOneSeven 23h

Will CCs be yellow?

31 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b OP 22h

They might be yella. I haven't thought to visualize them yet. Fool's gold is mostly what comes to mind.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @OneOneSeven 22h

So the sats people leave on SN, do they become Reward Sats on Nov 5?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 21h

Yes effectively.

111 sats \ 0 replies \ @OneOneSeven 21h

I misunderstood things when I asked the first question.

If anything, when the balances are shown together, CCs are already green and reward/legacy sats should be yellow, for cash and gold haha.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @flat24 23h

Mr. @k00b, what are the wallets that we could use to attach to SN?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 23h

They are here: https://stacker.news/settings/wallets

We'll be adding more wallet types as time goes on but that's what we've got right now.

165 sats \ 0 replies \ @falsefaucet 15 Oct

whats this 'real bitcoin'? you mean to tell me koob, ive been getting fake bitcoin

11 sats \ 4 replies \ @0xIlmari 15 Oct

So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?

So zapping will now incur lightning fees?

If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?

Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).

70 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 23h

So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?

Not necessarily, many wallet connections either require no approval or allow to set a budget within which payments are automatically approved.

So zapping will now incur lightning fees?

Yes, you pay for the route to our node. We pay the network fees for the route to the recipient from the 30% we take for rewards and territory revenue.

For small zaps, it can be a high percentage due to base fees (1 sat fee for 1 sat payments). If you want zero fees, open a channel to SN.

If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?

Yes. If your wallet fails too much, we might disable it and you'll receive cowboy credits instead until you fixed your wallet and want to try it again.

Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).

You can use Blink for receiving via its lightning address.

If a wallet does not support ~~sending~~ receiving, it's either because we haven't implemented it yet or because they don't support running on the server (like WebLN).

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 23h

sending

I think you mean receiving.

184 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 23h

thanks, fixed

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 23h

So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?

Only if that's what your wallet setup/settings require. Mine doesn't. That's up to you.

So zapping will now incur lightning fees?

That's right. If fees are too high for you, you can always use cowboy credits instead.

If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?

If all the recipient's attached wallets fail (you can attach more than one), we will fallback to giving the receiver fee credits unless they indicate they'd prefer to receive nothing if no wallet is available.

Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)?

Some wallets only support one or the other. For some wallets like Blink, we've only implemented one or the other. We plan on implementing Blink receives soon (@rblb mentioned wanting to work on it this morning).

I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).

For non-custodial p2p zaps on SN, we implement an lnproxy like forwarding mechanism. So the only one that would learn your lnd node's identity is SN. That still might not suit your threat model, but it's worth mentioning.

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 14 Oct

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Manikese 14 Oct

Lol. Great conversation

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bee_Aye 14 Oct

i didnt even get to vote! 😅

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @JerryGarcia 14 Oct

Wait a minute. What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on November 5th?

165 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

You can find them at the bottom of any pint of Cherry Garcia at participating grocery stores.

241 sats \ 1 reply \ @sudocarlos 14 Oct

What a great faq! Can you point me to the post that describes whats going on with withdrawals being only 70%? Will that continue?

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Those aren't withdrawals. Those are zaps. Although we haven't updated the copy to distinguish between them that so it's our fault. i.e. if you withdraw sats from your wallet, there is no such fee.

As of this release, zaps are subject to a 30% sybil fee - up from 10% prior.

128 sats \ 5 replies \ @SimpleStacker 14 Oct

Ok, so I have two questions:

Is this move because of fear of financial regulators or pressure from investors? Be honest, I won't judge. I'm not an anti-state maxi like some... I recognize the pragmatic need to follow the rules.
The max fee for attached wallets is by default 1% of the transaction. 1% seems like a lot if, say, I want to withdraw 50k sats. On the other hand, 1% seems like too little (resulting in failed routes) if the transaction is small, like 100 sats.
- How does SN deal with this?
- How does it determine when to auto-withdraw?
- Is every single zap a lightning transaction? Even if I want to zap just 1 sat?

151 sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Fear of financial regulators. Fear of having to do this later, when we know it will eventually need to be done. Fear of lightning wallets that support apps and the protocol not being ready when we'll need to depend on them. Fear of non-custodial lightning not maturing because no one wants to put in the effort to try. If anything SN's investors had a small bias again us changing this early. My investors are the good kind - I do what I want and they like it that way.
Your first two questions will not be relevant after Nov. 5th as SN won't have custody of sats before they are sent to you (autowithdrawals were an intermediate solution). To your last question, if the sender and recipient are using attached wallets and 1 sat can be routed between them successfully, yes that is a lightning transaction. If 1 cannot be routed between them, the recipient will receive cowboy credits unless they've indicated (via their settings) they'd rather receive nothing in such cases.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 3h

I wanted to add, re: investors, for anyone that might be a forum sleuth: startup investors are not as meddlesome as popular media would have you believe. And, even if they were, I own 89% of SN and have not signed away any future voting rights.

324 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 22h

Fear of non-custodial lightning not maturing because no one wants to put in the effort to try.

Fuck yes

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 14 Oct

:Thumbs up: to question 1.

To question 2, if no route can be found, and a cowboy credit is created instead, where does the sat go?

I will make an educated guess that the sat stays in the zapper's wallet, then the zappee receives +1 CC and the zapper is deduced -1 CC. Is that correct?

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

The sat is paid to SN, which in turn creates a cowboy credit and assigns it to the receiver.

If the sender has CCs in their wallet, rather than creating a CC, we'll just transfer it to the receiver like sats are transferred today.

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @SwapMarket 14 Oct

I gave my SN lightning address to bet on US President election results before this deadline announcement was posted. Feels like a rug pull.

Is your LND via Tor working? Keep getting "(2) failed to create test invoice: No connection established. Last error: undefined"

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

We are working on better errors to diagnose these problems. Our Tor support is unreliable and I'm sorry.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @SwapMarket 14 Oct

Forcing users to open clearnet ports is dangerous and is similar to kyc (((

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Come on man. I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm sorry Tor isn't working for you. I hope we can get it fixed soon.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @SimpleStacker 14 Oct

fwiw I'm getting the same error message, and I don't think I'm connected via Tor.

Currently just using Alby Hub Desktop.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Are you using NWC? What kind of lightning node is Alby Hub connected to?

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @SimpleStacker 14 Oct

Yes, NWC. I assume it's connected to the default lightning node that gets installed when you install the software.

With my Alby node I was already able to:

Receive bitcoin into the wallet via blockchain.
Connect to stacker.news LN node on LN.
Route a payment to Bitrefill through stacker.news node.
Attach the wallet via NWC. The green circle seems to indicate the wallet was attached successfully. However, when I set desired balance to 0 and click save, I get an error message saying "Failed to create test invoice: the public key does not have a wallet connected. (I guess it's not 100% same as the other user's error)

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

That error suggests the NWC string might be invalid. Was this with a brand new NWC string?

view replies

42 sats \ 2 replies \ @398ja 14 Oct

Do 🤠 credits use the cash e-cash protocol?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

No, they do not. :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @398ja 14 Oct

*cashu

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Bee_Aye 14 Oct

So will the ln address for my stacker news account directly receive sats to my receive method (and expose my node if connected for receive) similar to how the getalby connection works, or does it first go to stacker news node, then fwd to my receive wallet method ?

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

On an opt-in basis, we will provide an lnproxy like method to protect your receiving wallet's pubkey at a cost of 10% of the payment amount.

245 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bee_Aye 14 Oct

Ok, so if not opted in, directly fwded to receive method. Or, opt into the proxy for additional privacy at a fee. ty!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Exactly!

0 sats \ 11 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 14 Oct

Has anyone tested any of these attached Bitcoin wallets on iPhone? I primarily use SN on an “app” (Home Screen shortcut) on my iPhone.

I don’t want to need to use my laptop for lightning.

122 sats \ 5 replies \ @nym 14 Oct

You could try Coinos.io on just iPhone.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @Wumbo 13h

Coinos

Has Coinos been responding slow to anyone else today?

Currently taking tens of seconds to switch between pages at times.

Also trying to Attach NWC for coinos to SN today is timing out.

6 sats \ 1 reply \ @realBitcoinDog 9h

I’m watching this BTC Sessions video trying to learn https://youtu.be/GADLcQ4g8DU?si=h2iWTxvhAVwyDzdY

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wumbo 9h

For me Coinos is working quickly now.

Here is separate related post: #724652

26 sats \ 1 reply \ @realBitcoinDog 14 Oct

Perfect this is the answer I was looking for, and hey @supratic already has a guide! #694593

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 14 Oct

Awesome!

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

If you're interested in bitcoin's pilgrimage of self-hosting a bitcoin and lightning node at home, I'd highly recommend doing that and adding Alby Hub for NWC.

Alternatively, for 10.5k sats/mo Alby will run a non-custodial node with NWC for you.

If you're not in the US and don't want to self-host, Blink provides an open source mobile custodial wallet.

We'll be adding many more wallet options as we go, so even if none of these options make sense right now, hopefully one will at some point.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Personally, on iOS and on my laptop, I use NWC with a Start9 server I run at home.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ch0k1 58m

Can you please give a brief how-to tutorial on setting up NWC with Start9?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 53m

download Alby Hub in the marketplace (available in the latest startOS release)
open Alby Hub
follow this guide #698497

18 sats \ 0 replies \ @ch0k1 53m

Don't bother, I've found it

1575 sats \ 0 replies \ @jimmysong 14 Oct

Thank you.

343 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scroogey 14 Oct

Is there no way to show the attached wallet's balance at the top right?

That green zero is very very sad.

134 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

lol we were discussing this this morning. We might show a wallet status indicator instead.

54 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scroogey 14 Oct

Is all of this just weasel words for the lawyers, or will you actually bookkeep and show two separate balances, one for "real sats" and one for "cowboy credits"?

Or how do you prevent one "cowboy credit" being withdrawn as a real sat after the deadline?

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

They'll each get their own balance.

14 sats \ 0 replies \ @Carresan 14 Oct

Thanks! I understand your reasons, so I will do my best with the transition. @supratic did a great job to make things easier for noobs like me.

53 sats \ 3 replies \ @supratic 14 Oct

There are a bunch of horses and guns waiting to be distributed! 🔫 🐎 🤠

But wait, what is going to bake cowboy credits, and how are they going to be released to the market? Limited supply or infinite brrrr?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @03393ec3a3 14 Oct

Pardon my ignorance, but what do the horse and pistol icons mean, please?

187 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

I think they will be created in real time, when it's necessary, and burned when the rewards are paid.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Yep, 1 sat creates 1 CC. 1CC in rewards creates 1 sat.

128 sats \ 1 reply \ @Golu 14 Oct

A big big shout out for the writing style.

Man, I have all the questions because I hardly understand but I know someone and I'll hire him for all of this.

Just tell me if there are any security tradeoffs if I get it done by someone else?

I've learnt that Sats will be the future money so I don't wanna take a risk. Can I believe someone or I learn it how to do?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Yes, that someone else will have access to your money.

54 sats \ 1 reply \ @realBitcoinDog 14 Oct

Is there an attached bitcoin wallet you recommend best for iPhone experience?

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic 14 Oct

You need to attach a lightning wallet, one of those provided in your wallet > attach wallet https://stacker.news/settings/wallets

Looking for guidance? Read here #723140

343 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 14 Oct

I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?

Lol 😂 !

How are all these asking you even a question after reading this? You've already declared that it's just imposed. Hey, don't take me wrong, sometimes it's better to impose good things.

I don't have any question because all sorted out before in the conversations and a few guides.

Initially, I thought it would be very difficult but it's as easy as it can be.

But, I will be with the dying/decaying SN wallet until the last moment to console it and when RIP, I'll pay my homage and then only attach. (Though I've done it before).

Thank you @k00b for making us learn the true sovereignty. Long live Zaps and Long live SN!

85 sats \ 10 replies \ @grayruby 14 Oct

Ha ha this is a clever way to address the myriad of questions you will get but you didn’t answer the most important one that you will likely get.

“What wallets can I use and how the heck do I do this”

I mean if I can figure it out so can everyone else but I don’t think “figure it out” should be the response.

10.1k sats \ 8 replies \ @supratic 14 Oct

Did you say attach wallet to SN? Here you go :)

30 sats \ 2 replies \ @tomlaies 14 Oct

Can I somehow do the phoenixd thing with custodial phoenix? Like the Bolt12 lno1... thing just like with an ln-url?

40 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

You mean with the phoenix mobile app?

We plan to support bolt12 as a receiving method¹, but there is no programmatic sending method supported by the app.

it won't ship for a couple months though ↩

55 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 14 Oct

I might just wait for bolt12 as a receiving method and accumulate CC in the meantime

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 14 Oct

Is there one you recommend works best with iPhone?

273 sats \ 3 replies \ @grayruby 14 Oct

I am going to make a post with all these links and forward the sats to you.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @supratic 14 Oct

Definitely, go for it! I did not think about that! Probably because not sure what else to add or how to present the guides as a whole.

There are some missing, WebLN, CLN and LNC that I'm still working on

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 14 Oct

How did you get the links to be represented by the title of the post?

I did not do that. I just posted the links and then copy pasted the title beside.

But would be handy to know how to do that for future reference.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

#723140/edit

Did you say _attach wallet to SN_? Here you go :)

 - [Easily attach wallet to SEND & RECEIVE sats from SN with Coinos.io and HODL](https://stacker.news/items/694593)

- [Install, Run, Publish & Connect 𝚙𝚑𝚘𝚎𝚗𝚒𝚡𝚍 to SEND/RECEIVE sats to/from SN](https://stacker.news/items/695912)

- [How to Attach Your self-hosted LNbits wallet to SEND/RECEIVE sats to/from SN](https://stacker.news/items/697132)

- [How to attach your LND node to RECEIVE bitcoin from SN via ThunderHub](https://stacker.news/items/704693)

- [How to attach your Blink.sv wallet to SEND sats to SN with a Blink's API key](https://stacker.news/items/705629)

- [How to Connect your LN node to SEND/RECEIVE sats to/from SN via NWC with AlbyHub](https://stacker.news/items/698497)

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

I hear you.

1 sat \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

OPEN FOR BUSINESS - swaps CC to $$ : #723069

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @supratic 14 Oct

This is great! Can you do the other way around too? I give you CC and you send sats? LOL

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

yes sure... 2 CC for 1 sat

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @supratic 14 Oct

Cool, I should have asked in the ad itself!

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

12 sats \ 3 replies \ @wilto 14 Oct

I am a bit new to all this technology

After creating my account here, I used the Stacker News wallet for the 'Lightning address' of my Nostr account - and was happy with that very simple setup.

Will that new change impacts the Nostr setup?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?

If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.

If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.

So if you don't want to receive Cowboy Credits when you're zapped on nostr, you'll want to either:

attach a receiving wallet to SN, or
stop using your SN lightning address on nostr

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @tomlaies 14 Oct

stop using your SN lightning address on nostr

I thought original post said the username @stacker.news ln-url will continue working as a forwarding method?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

It will! See (1)

attach a receiving wallet to SN

Which means that we will send payments made to your lightning address to your attached wallet.

5 sats \ 6 replies \ @prazskygolem 14 Oct

why?

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

18 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 14 Oct

It do be like that. All the custodial wallets are closing. Even if it's just small sums for convenience.

12 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

You can only legally serve US customers custodially if you KYC them and pay millions of dollars for licenses.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 14 Oct

This is outrageous sir

245 sats \ 1 reply \ @Arceris 14 Oct

One reason may be that custodial services are under assault lately, so this is a safer solution long-term.

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Bingo ringo

19 sats \ 3 replies \ @cryotosensei 14 Oct

If I attach a wallet that enables me to receive only, can I zap other Stackers real Bitcoin with the zaps I obtain even if I don’t have an external sending wallet?

24 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

No, you need an external sending wallet to zap real sats

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 14 Oct

Roger, thanks.

Why do you have a gun to your name?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

because I am a real cowboy, zap zap!

405 sats \ 4 replies \ @justin_shocknet 14 Oct

My opinion on the motivation for this aside, the UX for wallet connections simply isn't there to support this...

So I've posted a $300 bounty for SN to integrate NIP-69 and NIP-68, which offer far superior UX, better security, and scalability than is currently possible with other wallet connections.

Perhaps others can chip in...

https://github.com/stackernews/stacker.news/issues/1478

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 21h

Bounty should be denominated in sats. Just sayin

17 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

Can you give us an idea of how this implementation would improve the UX? It would be great if it simplifies the process. Would a stacker need to have nostr keys, or would that be unnecessary (like NWC)?

143 sats \ 1 reply \ @justin_shocknet 14 Oct

I'm involuntarily off-grid again, so apologies for the brevity...

This flips the nostr pairing scheme on its head vs NWC and adds a new user property, so that you simply provide a lightning addresses and approve (or deny) the request in your wallet

(The wallet has nostr keys for communication, you don't have to yourself in the social sense, or even know about it)

NIP-69 you can think of like nostr-native bolt12 or lnurl-p, and NIP-68 is the reverse to complete the flow.

There's more detailed justification in the respective NIPs and conversations, but here's a video clip: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1529#issuecomment-2400364120

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

Thanks

130 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 14 Oct

294 sats \ 5 replies \ @jarjarships 14 Oct

It will cause a lot of confusion for old folks but for noobs the effect of the changes will be negligible. Anyway, thank you SN for changing your old rules.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @IamSINGLE 14 Oct

Why do you think so?

174 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

I'm in my 60s. It's not rocket science.

43 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

deleted by author

777 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 14 Oct

deleted by author

1000 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

deleted by author

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @LowK3y19 14 Oct

I’m gonna miss the old way

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 14 Oct

me too fellow stacker

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 14 Oct

So interesting to see the evolution of the a Bitcoin space. A coincidence this lines up with the Nov 5th election?

58 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

This will create a lot of confusing among stackers. I repeat: you should separate "upvotes" from "zaps".

upvotes = use cowboy credits, stackers must buy them with sats from SN. These will not be able to withdraw, only circulate inside SN.
zaps = use real sats, with external wallets attached and stackers will give them SEPARATELY to anybody else

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Satosora 14 Oct

Not to take the unpopular opinion, but stacker news was about using bitcoin and zapping them back and forth. That is what made is so unique. Not that cowboy credits will be different, just something we have to get used to. How will the algorithm and everything work with cowboy credits and zaps? @ek @k00b

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 14 Oct

Stacker News is, and was, such a special place on the internet. Sats to post, sats to comment... it is the best.

I don't want cowboy credits. I want to send and receive real sats. In my opinion it's easier the 'old way' than having to attach multiple wallets. Just to send and receive.

Receiving is easier (i guess) through an LN address but what about sending? It somewhat complicates the UI imo.

20 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

How will the algorithm and everything work with cowboy credits and zaps?

Exactly the same. CCs are sats as far as the algorithm is concerned since every CC was once a real sat. CCs become real sats again only through rewards.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 14 Oct

Ah, okay. So nothing really changes, except we have to attach a wallet. So would I have two different values if I just keep my btc on here?

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

In case you do not want to attach an external wallet, swaps between stackers will be in place.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 14 Oct

I dont really want to attach an external wallet.... Eventually I will have to take these btc out of here, just am not in such a hurry. If cowboy credits will equal 1 sat, I wont really mind using CC, either. Just something I will have to get used to.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 14 Oct

Swaps will start flowing... #723069

152 sats \ 12 replies \ @chungkingexpress 14 Oct

Just tried attaching a wallet. Can someone zap me to see if it works please? Also, what do I do with the last 10 sats that in the SN wallet?

162 sats \ 11 replies \ @chungkingexpress 14 Oct

So someone just zapped me, but it still went to my SN wallet balance (now 16 sats...) and not my linked wallet...what do I do?

1790 sats \ 0 replies \ @chungkingexpress 14 Oct

@k00b @ek continuing from the thread, here is one rough idea about how you could bring this to the user's attention in the UX and motivate attachment of wallets and illustrate what it means.

The "attach wallet" page is quite complex for someone who does not know much (what does NWC, LNC, and LNBITS mean to a newbie?) so there could be some useful tooltips, alerts, or recommendations in there too.

I am sure you guys are onto it, but happy to throw in some design feedback as you work through it!

10 sats \ 9 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Review your wallet logs as it means the route/payment couldn't be completed.

The might not be very descriptive atm, but ek is working on improvements to them currently.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @chungkingexpress 14 Oct

Both WebLN (send) and Lightning Address (receive) are setup on my end. The wallet works for manual withdrawals, but is there a big button somewhere to tell SN to pay from my external wallet and not from the SN wallet?

Also the Lightning Address wallet only has a withdrawal threshold at the moment, do I need to set this to 1sat to get every payment routed to my Lightning address?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 14 Oct

Also the Lightning Address wallet only has a withdrawal threshold at the moment, do I need to set this to 1sat to get every payment routed to my Lightning address?

If you have a receive wallet attached and someone zaps you from their own wallet, we try to send sats straight to your wallet ("p2p zap"). If that doesn't work for some reason, they will go into the custodial wallet as if they used custodial sats. The threshold then determines when a withdrawal should automatically be triggered.

After Nov 5th, these automated withdrawals will no longer exist since any sats that you couldn't receive into your own wallet (because you don't have one attached or there was an error) will become cowboy credits that you can't withdraw. The exception are the sats that you accumulated before Nov 5th. They will always be there for you to withdraw.

We might simply set the threshold to 0 after that date so there will be one last automated withdrawal to empty your custodial wallet.

143 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 14 Oct

We might simply set the threshold to 0 after that date so there will be one last automated withdrawal to empty your custodial wallet.

Big event. K00b should film this with a big red button for the YT podcast.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

No, there is not. We will first try the custodial wallet. If the payment is too large for it, we will try your external wallet. (We don't do partial payments yet.)

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @chungkingexpress 14 Oct

OK so the way I have this setup now with a send and receive wallet setup, it should gracefully move over on Nov 5th without further action?

10k sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

Yes, you're all set

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

burger zap

reply on another page

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @chungkingexpress 14 Oct

OK. I know you guys got a lot on but I don't feel like this is at all clear. Do you have a UX plan to rollout / indicate to people if they are "all set" after the 5th? I guess it is not a major issue given that there will be cowboy credits still, but could be super confusing for people who are new to lightning / don't know the options.

view replies

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 14 Oct

SN elects!

Who are the electors?

Are we not thought to be part of SN?

BTW, I understand it's done for the defense so, it's good.

278 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 14 Oct

I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?

I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that? In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.

lmao :)

98 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 14 Oct

I found this hilarious, too. He knows the crowd well.

181 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

Good post and explanation. That doesn't mean you won't be getting a flood of unwarranted shit.

267 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

516 sats \ 2 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

deleted by author

98 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Well ... we are no longer providing financial services.

798 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

This comment warms my heart

45 sats \ 16 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

In order to be fully attached to the alby extension, these two must be active?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @poe7645 14 Oct

I'm confused with as this as well. Alby NWC gives me one string, and the NWC setting on SN needs two strings one for send and one for receive... So I just set my NWC as send.. and my receive I used my LN address to my node... So... Am.. am I doing this right?

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 14 Oct

You need to connect to SN twice. Then you get two strings. One should be set to read-only. See #698497.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @poe7645 14 Oct

Thank you, this is perfect. I think I got it sorted now.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

I can't help you with your question, @ek knows for sure.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

Yes, for example

21 sats \ 10 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

Are you using Alby hub? If so, you can set up a NWC send and receive attachment very easily.

43 sats \ 9 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

I don't have an Alby Hub yet. I like to wait a while to find out more about the pros and cons, as well as other people's experiences. Maybe with this change in SN I'll make the switch sooner. But I'd like to know if it's possible to be on SN and send/receive sats with just the Alby extension.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Taft 14 Oct

But I'd like to know if it's possible to be on SN and send/receive sats with just the Alby extension.

Yes, it is possible. I have tried it and works perfectly. But you have to pay one extra sat fee to Alby extension. For example, a comment will cost you now 2 sats.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

The solution is to always have a few sats in your SN wallet. 🤠

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Taft 14 Oct

Yea

32 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 14 Oct

I know you can receive very well through the lightning address. I did that for a while. I am also sure it would work for sending through WebLN, but I have no experience doing that.

43 sats \ 4 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

I noticed that I received your previous zap in my alby wallet. It would be cool to go to the alby wallet and the SN wallet! 🤠

62 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinsreporter 14 Oct

You should've recieved 31 Sats. ;)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

I don't think so!

43 - (43*0.3) = 30.1 - LN fee

23 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 14 Oct

I don't understand? Like a double payment? Yeah, I would like that too!

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

Yes! Ahahahhhh Now I only see the SN balance going down, it never goes up!

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Satosora 14 Oct

I am a bit slow on the uptake here. So if I have sats on here, I can still zap sats, without an external wallet? Or the sats will just sit until I withdraw? And you cant withdraw cowboy credits, right?

20 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

So if I have sats on here, I can still zap sats, without an external wallet?

No, not after Nov 5th. All sats for payments must come from your own wallet after that date.

Or the sats will just sit until I withdraw?

Yes

And you cant withdraw cowboy credits, right?

Yes, no withdrawals of cowboy credits.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Satosora 14 Oct

Can you just keep mine open? lol

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

What do you mean? It will stay open for you to withdraw the existing sats but you can't add any more to it. The existing wallet limit basically goes from 100k to 0.

67 sats \ 2 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 14 Oct

Good summary. Thank you. The only thing that's not clear to me: If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?

And if it's the former, I guess a related question is, why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?

Less urgently, the folks behind Zebedee are straight-up thieves, liars, and con-artists, so I really hope you don't put yourself in a position where they could financially screw you.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?

We're still working on these final details, but they'd likely come from your attached wallet unless you've indicated you'd like to send Cowboy Credits instead.

And if it's the former, I guess a related question is, why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?

They wouldn't choose to. But they might if:

they're new to SN and haven't had the chance to attach a wallet yet
their receiving wallet is unavailable temporarily

re: third party custodians

I can cope with a third party taking advantage of SN, but I will not stand for a third party taking advantage of any stacker by proxy. We will only partner with a third party custodian if I'm sure I can defend/save stackers from the third party should I need to.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?

They can only be withdrawn, not used for anything else. If you want to zap someone, you need to have cowboy credits or a wallet attached.

why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?

The SN wallet for sats essentially ceases to exist, the sats in it can only be withdrawn.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @gamekeyboard 14 Oct

I have a very good idea as to why you are making this changes. Which is why I am welcoming this modification. Thank you.

62 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 14 Oct

This is the way!

I hope most stackers will level up and continue using SN.

27 sats \ 0 replies \ @random_ 14 Oct

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @hasherstacker 14 Oct

you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice.

This got me thinking, "kyc?" LN Invoice is great.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

It's a lawyer's defensive language. We've spent the last 8 months building toward this so that it is both legal and doesn't require KYC.

10 sats \ 9 replies \ @south_korea_ln 14 Oct

I'm a bit tired, so I am probably misunderstanding this point. If I have an external receiving wallet, but the person zapping me does not have an external sending wallet, he will send me cowboy credits? This means that even with both types of external wallets linked to my account, I may still end up with cowboy credits?

101 sats \ 8 replies \ @ek 14 Oct

yes

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @south_korea_ln 14 Oct

So, to get rid of these credits, I need to zap someone else with them? Will there be a priority ranking between using those credits or my external wallet whenever credits are still available?

60 sats \ 6 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Where there is a clear advantage for you to use one or the other, we will do that. Where it's ambiguous, we will have a setting letting you express your preference.

252 sats \ 5 replies \ @south_korea_ln 14 Oct

Ok, great. Thanks. Hope it'll be a smooth ride and you can get back to non-wallet related stuff soon... must have been quite the adventure.

10.1k sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Thanks. It has been. There's nothing more draining for a founder than working on something that no one wants, but it's exciting to be nearly done.

299 sats \ 0 replies \ @WeAreAllSatoshi 21h

I want SN to stick around, so by association, I want this change.

2182 sats \ 2 replies \ @south_korea_ln 14 Oct

For what it's worth, these efforts might indirectly pay off for all the external wallet services that use NWC, etc. Often a chicken and egg problem, you've created demand for stable ways to connect external wallets hence incentivizing those services to develop their tools. Just guessing here.

Looking forward to the territory and subterritory stuff.

Celebrate a bit first though. Have a beer or burger on me at Fat Sal's if they are still around. Last time I was in Austin was ages ago. Might be there in December for work.

10k sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Thanks! That's my hope with lightning wallets too and I cannot wait to give territories their due finally.

I'll be taking an overdue vacation once this is all done.

view replies

71 sats \ 9 replies \ @carlosfandango 14 Oct

Beautifully written and I do hope the date isn’t a coincidence.

Not sure what happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov 5th though… sure someone will tell me :D

63 sats \ 2 replies \ @StillStackinAfterAllTheseYears 14 Oct

Beautifully written and I do hope the date isn’t a coincidence.

I mean, look at the phrasing in the subject line.

151 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

Double wammy.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @carlosfandango 14 Oct

I must admit to not seeing that lol

20 sats \ 5 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 14 Oct

Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.

Ahahah! 🤠

22 sats \ 4 replies \ @carlosfandango 14 Oct

Damn. Must have missed that… lol

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @anon 14 Oct

lol

7 sats \ 2 replies \ @carlosfandango 14 Oct

Who rattled your cage? Lol

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 14 Oct

deleted by author

77 sats \ 0 replies \ @carlosfandango 14 Oct

deleted by author

58 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 14 Oct

Thanks for the updates and keeping SN beyond reproach.

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @hasherstacker 14 Oct

Nice development

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @justanumber 14 Oct

deleted by author

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 14 Oct

No, as stated.

Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?

No, they do not.

If Reward Sats required KYC we wouldn't provide them at all.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 14 Oct

thanks, sorry, I posted the question b4 I scrolled down and found the answer! You answered it b4 I deleted my question :D I was the "not limited to" bit that made me wonder...

Footnotes

Why do you think so?