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What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So, what happens to the sats in my wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
So I don't need to panic because sats in my wallet after Nov. 5th will remain available to withdraw just like they were on Nov. 4th?
Yes, that's right.
If my sats remain available to withdraw, then what changes on Nov. 5th?
To zap with real bitcoin and be zapped with real bitcoin, you'll need to attach an external lightning wallet for sending and receiving respectively:
  1. If you want to send real bitcoin to other stackers when you zap them on SN, you'll need to attach an external sending wallet.
  2. If you want to receive bitcoin when you're zapped on SN, you'll need to attach an external receiving wallet.
If I don't have or want to attach external wallets, what happens to the zaps I send and the zaps I receive after Nov. 5th?
  1. When you zap someone else, you'll send Cowboy Credits and they'll receive Cowboy Credits.
  2. When someone zaps you, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
What are "Cowboy Credits"?
SN will accept Cowboy Credits as payment for everything it accepts sats for (e.g. posting fees, territory fees, even donations). You can also send them to other stackers as zaps.
So the only difference between Cowboy Credits and sats is that I can't withdraw Cowboy Credits?
That's right. That's the only difference.
What happens to rewards and territory revenue after Nov. 5th?
Nothing. Rewards and territory revenue will work the same as they do now.
Even if I don't attach an external wallet?
Yes, you'll receive "Reward Sats" which (like all custodial wallet balances) are not to be mistaken as truly yours until you withdraw them. You can also buy Cowboy Credits with Reward Sats if you choose. The only real changes to rewards after Nov. 5th are:
  1. Reward Sats can't be zapped to other stackers
  2. Reward Sats are subject to the following magic words, aka terms and conditions:
    • From time to time, Company may, at its sole discretion, offer and provide prizes or awards of BTC ("Reward Sats") to individuals or entities based on Company initiatives, promotions, or for other reasons determined by Company. Company reserves the right to issue (or not issue) such Reward Sats to any person or entity, at any time, and without prior notice. If you are selected to receive Reward Sats, Company will notify you and will transmit the Reward Sats to your account. In order to claim the Reward Sats, you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice. Failure to provide accurate and complete information may result in the forfeiture of the Reward Sats. You acknowledge and agree that you do not own, and shall have no right, title, or interest in any Reward Sats until such time as the Reward Sats are successfully transferred to your designated Lightning wallet. Until the transfer is completed, all rights to the Reward Sats remain solely with Company. Company makes no guarantee regarding the timing or availability of any such Reward Sats.
Can I zap other stackers my Reward Sats?
No, without an external sending wallet, you can only zap other stackers Cowboy Credits.
Do Reward Sats, or any of these changes, involve KYC or so-called "soft" KYC?
No, they do not.
What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?
If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.
If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
I have more questions about Nov 5th. Where can I ask them?
In this thread. Ask me anything.
I'm a territory founder and this change makes me regret paying for or purchasing a territory.
Please email me.
I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
In this thread.
I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that?
In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
Will SN ever offer a custodial lightning wallet again?
We may eventually partner with Zebedee and/or Strike and/or whoever to offer a 100% OPTIONAL integrated and regulated custodial wallet, but that will happen well after Nov. 5th.
What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
Nothing. The sats in your SN wallet will remain available to withdraw.
Okay, 3 things:
  • that's probably one of the best written FAQ I've ever read. Answers every question in an absolutely unequivocal fashion, and directly addresses questions that users are the most likely to ask first
  • congrats for taking this path. It'll have its challenges, but Cowboy Credits might be the glue that make it work for everyone in the end, and I'm really interested in watching how it unfurls
  • Nov. 5th is a very, very good choice of date for such a release.
Cowboy hats off!
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I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
I'm miserable but also sanctimonious so I'd like to write a eulogy for SN that you'll read. Where's the best place to do that? In this thread, but it might be more fitting to write it on nostr or X and tag me.
lmao :)
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I found this hilarious, too. He knows the crowd well.
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Apologies for using this thread as a support thread, but I got good answers here before so may as well keep trying.
Is the attached wallet functionality dependent on the device you're on?
I got a different UX while logged onto SN from my phone than my desktop. I set up attached wallets with Alby/NWC from my desktop, and after a bit of jerry-rigging, it all worked fine. I can zap and it will automatically send using my Alby Wallet. I can get zapped and I will automatically receive it into my Alby wallet.
However, when I try to zap from my phone, a lightning invoice appears, which is different behavior from the desktop.
Both devices are accessing SN from Chromium.
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We don’t store sending credentials on our server so they need to be input on each device. We should have device sync (encrypted) before Nov 5, but for now sending wallets need to be input on each device they’re used.
Thank you.
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It will cause a lot of confusion for old folks but for noobs the effect of the changes will be negligible. Anyway, thank you SN for changing your old rules.
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I'm in my 60s. It's not rocket science.
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I'm having a bad day, week, month, year, or life. Where's the best place for me to make you miserable too while pretending that this post is the cause?
Lol 😂 !
How are all these asking you even a question after reading this? You've already declared that it's just imposed. Hey, don't take me wrong, sometimes it's better to impose good things.
I don't have any question because all sorted out before in the conversations and a few guides.
Initially, I thought it would be very difficult but it's as easy as it can be.
But, I will be with the dying/decaying SN wallet until the last moment to console it and when RIP, I'll pay my homage and then only attach. (Though I've done it before).
Thank you @k00b for making us learn the true sovereignty. Long live Zaps and Long live SN!
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Good post and explanation. That doesn't mean you won't be getting a flood of unwarranted shit.
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This comment warms my heart
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Is there no way to show the attached wallet's balance at the top right?
That green zero is very very sad.
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lol we were discussing this this morning. We might show a wallet status indicator instead.
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What a great faq! Can you point me to the post that describes whats going on with withdrawals being only 70%? Will that continue?
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Those aren't withdrawals. Those are zaps. Although we haven't updated the copy to distinguish between them that so it's our fault. i.e. if you withdraw sats from your wallet, there is no such fee.
As of this release, zaps are subject to a 30% sybil fee - up from 10% prior.
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Will CCs be yellow?
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They might be yella. I haven't thought to visualize them yet. Fool's gold is mostly what comes to mind.
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So the sats people leave on SN, do they become Reward Sats on Nov 5?
Just tried attaching a wallet. Can someone zap me to see if it works please? Also, what do I do with the last 10 sats that in the SN wallet?
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So someone just zapped me, but it still went to my SN wallet balance (now 16 sats...) and not my linked wallet...what do I do?
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@k00b @ek continuing from the thread, here is one rough idea about how you could bring this to the user's attention in the UX and motivate attachment of wallets and illustrate what it means.
The "attach wallet" page is quite complex for someone who does not know much (what does NWC, LNC, and LNBITS mean to a newbie?) so there could be some useful tooltips, alerts, or recommendations in there too.
I am sure you guys are onto it, but happy to throw in some design feedback as you work through it!
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Smart
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whats this 'real bitcoin'? you mean to tell me koob, ive been getting fake bitcoin
/s
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Finally got around to setting up my wallet with Coinos. So far it is working great!
This guide was very helpful: #694593
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I haven’t paid close attention to the GraphQL mutations for creating items with respect to paying invoices on demand. Is it the case that as long as your account has an external spending wallet configured, the spending wallet should be used automatically and an API client shouldn’t have to do anything with the spending wallet directly?
Edit: I’m asking for my automated bot comments. They’ve been mostly working with my external spending wallet configured, but occasionally they fail and I notice that in my notifications later
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For automated things I’d use cowboy credits which won’t require additional work.
If your account doesn’t have enough cowboy credits to perform the action, the response returns an invoice that needs to be paid by the client (we don’t store spending permissions on the server). If the invoice goes unpaid we send that notification.
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Thank you, I think that all makes sense. And I should have remembered that spending permissions aren’t stored!
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Good summary. Thank you. The only thing that's not clear to me: If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?
And if it's the former, I guess a related question is, why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?
Less urgently, the folks behind Zebedee are straight-up thieves, liars, and con-artists, so I really hope you don't put yourself in a position where they could financially screw you.
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If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?
We're still working on these final details, but they'd likely come from your attached wallet unless you've indicated you'd like to send Cowboy Credits instead.
And if it's the former, I guess a related question is, why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?
They wouldn't choose to. But they might if:
  • they're new to SN and haven't had the chance to attach a wallet yet
  • their receiving wallet is unavailable temporarily
re: third party custodians
I can cope with a third party taking advantage of SN, but I will not stand for a third party taking advantage of any stacker by proxy. We will only partner with a third party custodian if I'm sure I can defend/save stackers from the third party should I need to.
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If I don't withdraw all of my sats from my SN wallet (but also have an attached wallet), and I zap someone, does that zap only come from my attached wallet, or are the SN wallet sats depleted first?
They can only be withdrawn, not used for anything else. If you want to zap someone, you need to have cowboy credits or a wallet attached.
why would anyone keep sats in the SN wallet from that point forward?
The SN wallet for sats essentially ceases to exist, the sats in it can only be withdrawn.
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@koob just curious why reward sats for territory owners are not cowboy credits? Aren't you in custody of territory owner's money and therefore hitting the money transmitter issues?
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Because we are choosing to pay that money to territory owners on daily basis. Even if it were "custody," my understanding is that territory owners are like merchants and SN is like a Shopify and custody of revenues in such cases does not qualify as money transmission.
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The distinction is subtle but again, just my understanding, is that the poster/commenter/zapper doesn't not spend with the intent of giving the territory founder money. SN isn't taking custody of money as party A gives it to party B. SN is merely cutting the territory founder into SN's own revenue like it does with rewards - albeit more predictably.
This is the way!
I hope most stackers will level up and continue using SN.
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Thanks for the updates and keeping SN beyond reproach.
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A big big shout out for the writing style.
Man, I have all the questions because I hardly understand but I know someone and I'll hire him for all of this.
Just tell me if there are any security tradeoffs if I get it done by someone else?
I've learnt that Sats will be the future money so I don't wanna take a risk. Can I believe someone or I learn it how to do?
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Yes, that someone else will have access to your money.
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Is there an attached bitcoin wallet you recommend best for iPhone experience?
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You need to attach a lightning wallet, one of those provided in your wallet > attach wallet https://stacker.news/settings/wallets
Looking for guidance? Read here #723140
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There are a bunch of horses and guns waiting to be distributed! 🔫 🐎 🤠
But wait, what is going to bake cowboy credits, and how are they going to be released to the market? Limited supply or infinite brrrr?
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I think they will be created in real time, when it's necessary, and burned when the rewards are paid.
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Yep, 1 sat creates 1 CC. 1CC in rewards creates 1 sat.
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Pardon my ignorance, but what do the horse and pistol icons mean, please?
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remember remember...
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If I attach a wallet that enables me to receive only, can I zap other Stackers real Bitcoin with the zaps I obtain even if I don’t have an external sending wallet?
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No, you need an external sending wallet to zap real sats
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Roger, thanks.
Why do you have a gun to your name?
So interesting to see the evolution of the a Bitcoin space. A coincidence this lines up with the Nov 5th election?
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A question. When I check my external wallet attached to SN, the log always says "connecting" and sometimes I see "error" in red, but I can't identify the error because the log keeps flashing.
WHAT CAN IT BE AND HOW DO I FIX THAT?
PS: I received SATs directly to my external wallet, which appear as Invoice P2P in the notification and in the wallet it appears as:
" SN: Zap so many sats to # of the post ".
So I have no idea what's going on.
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but I can't identify the error because the log keeps flashing.
fix will be released soon
which wallet are you trying to attach?
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I attached Wallet of Satoshi. I had the Blink lightning address, but I was seeing the error and replaced it with WoS. Because I wanted to attach Phoenix, but I don't always have it online, so I don't know if I can attach it.
With WoS I'm getting Zap, but the log is constantly flashing and the word "error" appears sometimes, but I can't figure out what the error is.
Wait... So what happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
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You’ll be surprised
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You triggered a lot of active users. By the amount of comments and SATS that this thread gathered it will be very good for all, it seems.
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Thanks! I understand your reasons, so I will do my best with the transition. @supratic did a great job to make things easier for noobs like me.
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Is all of this just weasel words for the lawyers, or will you actually bookkeep and show two separate balances, one for "real sats" and one for "cowboy credits"?
Or how do you prevent one "cowboy credit" being withdrawn as a real sat after the deadline?
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They'll each get their own balance.
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I am a bit new to all this technology
After creating my account here, I used the Stacker News wallet for the 'Lightning address' of my Nostr account - and was happy with that very simple setup.
Will that new change impacts the Nostr setup?
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What if I receive sats to my SN lightning address after Nov. 5th?
If you've attached an external receiving wallet, those sats will go directly to your receiving wallet.
If you haven't attached an external receiving wallet, you'll receive Cowboy Credits.
So if you don't want to receive Cowboy Credits when you're zapped on nostr, you'll want to either:
  1. attach a receiving wallet to SN, or
  2. stop using your SN lightning address on nostr
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stop using your SN lightning address on nostr
I thought original post said the username@stacker.news ln-url will continue working as a forwarding method?
Today I was reading about the changes coming on November 5th on the SN platform. I find it interesting that the Cowboy Credit (CC) is introduced and that to be extracted it must be sold in SATs. I don't know what motivated that decision but I'm sure there must be a good reason, I don't doubt it.
In this case, would using CC to incentivize work within the platform be good? Will it be necessary to use P2P to exchange CC for SATs?
Stacker News is different from the rest precisely because of the community incentive, this quote is in the community history:
"Behavior in human communities develops as a result of the incentives humans in the community are given, and existing online communities influence behavior by format, pseudo-reputation, gamification, and moderation. Basically their communities develop as a result of expression limits, rewards backed by nothing, and centralized control. My assumption with Stacker News is that Bitcoin fixes this by having users stake something other than pseudo-reputation, Bitcoin, and earn rewards that are worth something in the external world, Bitcoin."
I'm not judging, questioning or criticizing the decision of the creators of this excellent platform, nor would I want it to be interpreted that way. I'm just trying to understand how it's going to work.
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Mr. @k00b, what are the wallets that we could use to attach to SN?
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We'll be adding more wallet types as time goes on but that's what we've got right now.
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So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?
So zapping will now incur lightning fees?
If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?
Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).
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So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?
Not necessarily, many wallet connections either require no approval or allow to set a budget within which payments are automatically approved.
So zapping will now incur lightning fees?
Yes, you pay for the route to our node. We pay the network fees for the route to the recipient from the 30% we take for rewards and territory revenue.
For small zaps, it can be a high percentage due to base fees (1 sat fee for 1 sat payments). If you want zero fees, open a channel to SN.
If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?
Yes. If your wallet fails too much, we might disable it and you'll receive cowboy credits instead until you fixed your wallet and want to try it again.
Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)? I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).
You can use Blink for receiving via its lightning address.
If a wallet does not support sending receiving, it's either because we haven't implemented it yet or because they don't support running on the server (like WebLN).
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sending
I think you mean receiving.
So zapping will now require me to tab out to a different app to approve a spend?
Only if that's what your wallet setup/settings require. Mine doesn't. That's up to you.
So zapping will now incur lightning fees?
That's right. If fees are too high for you, you can always use cowboy credits instead.
If the recipient is offline (say a mobile wallet), the zap will fail?
If all the recipient's attached wallets fail (you can attach more than one), we will fallback to giving the receiver fee credits unless they indicate they'd prefer to receive nothing if no wallet is available.
Why are some wallets send only (like Blink)?
Some wallets only support one or the other. For some wallets like Blink, we've only implemented one or the other. We plan on implementing Blink receives soon (@rblb mentioned wanting to work on it this morning).
I like Blink as an intermediary because it obfuscates my identity (I don't reveal my main LND node, which I may want to associate with a different identity).
For non-custodial p2p zaps on SN, we implement an lnproxy like forwarding mechanism. So the only one that would learn your lnd node's identity is SN. That still might not suit your threat model, but it's worth mentioning.
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My opinion on the motivation for this aside, the UX for wallet connections simply isn't there to support this...
So I've posted a $300 bounty for SN to integrate NIP-69 and NIP-68, which offer far superior UX, better security, and scalability than is currently possible with other wallet connections.
Perhaps others can chip in...
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Can you give us an idea of how this implementation would improve the UX? It would be great if it simplifies the process. Would a stacker need to have nostr keys, or would that be unnecessary (like NWC)?
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I'm involuntarily off-grid again, so apologies for the brevity...
This flips the nostr pairing scheme on its head vs NWC and adds a new user property, so that you simply provide a lightning addresses and approve (or deny) the request in your wallet
(The wallet has nostr keys for communication, you don't have to yourself in the social sense, or even know about it)
NIP-69 you can think of like nostr-native bolt12 or lnurl-p, and NIP-68 is the reverse to complete the flow.
There's more detailed justification in the respective NIPs and conversations, but here's a video clip: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1529#issuecomment-2400364120
Bounty should be denominated in sats. Just sayin
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that’s the spirit! 🤘🏼
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In order to be fully attached to the alby extension, these two must be active?
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Yes, for example
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Are you using Alby hub? If so, you can set up a NWC send and receive attachment very easily.
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I don't have an Alby Hub yet. I like to wait a while to find out more about the pros and cons, as well as other people's experiences. Maybe with this change in SN I'll make the switch sooner. But I'd like to know if it's possible to be on SN and send/receive sats with just the Alby extension.
@siggy47 you use proton wallet right?
Have you successfully attached it for both send and receive, if so how easy was it? I don't tech good.
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I use proton for everything BUT the wallet. Sorry. I don't know anything about it. I wonder if @DarthCoin or @supratic know?
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No I do not use Proton wallet and I haven't tested. Not sure if I really have interest in it. Is really weird and not really handy to link a wallet to an email. I like to keep that totally separate.
Even for LN addresses, I like to use decoy ones (not my real private domain names). LN addresses with my own domains are strictly for personal private use, not public. For public use the custodial ones are just fine and a perfect decoy.
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It doesn't have a lightning wallet so it won't work for this. The best send/recieve solutions people have found so far:
  • low self-sovereignty regardless of jurisdiction (ie custodial): coinos
  • medium self-sovereignty (ie saas self-custody): cloud hosted AlbyHub #698497
  • full self-sovereignty: your own node running alongside AlbyHub
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Cheers k00b I just got access to it and thought I couldn't find any lightning details. I'll use one of the other solutions much appreciated bud 👊
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hmm I didn’t get that: What happens to the sats in my SN wallet on Nov. 5th?
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old sats will stay Bitcoin and can be withdrawn as before. Newly arriving sats will be converted to Cowboy Credits unless you connect a wallet for auto withdrawal. Cowboy Credits can be zapped to other users but cannot be withdrawn.
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Ha ha this is a clever way to address the myriad of questions you will get but you didn’t answer the most important one that you will likely get.
“What wallets can I use and how the heck do I do this”
I mean if I can figure it out so can everyone else but I don’t think “figure it out” should be the response.
I have a very good idea as to why you are making this changes. Which is why I am welcoming this modification. Thank you.
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you will be required to set up an account, and may be required to provide certain personal information, including but not limited to, a valid Lightning wallet invoice.
This got me thinking, "kyc?" LN Invoice is great.
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It's a lawyer's defensive language. We've spent the last 8 months building toward this so that it is both legal and doesn't require KYC.
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I'm a bit tired, so I am probably misunderstanding this point. If I have an external receiving wallet, but the person zapping me does not have an external sending wallet, he will send me cowboy credits? This means that even with both types of external wallets linked to my account, I may still end up with cowboy credits?
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yes
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So, to get rid of these credits, I need to zap someone else with them? Will there be a priority ranking between using those credits or my external wallet whenever credits are still available?
Ok, so I have two questions:
  1. Is this move because of fear of financial regulators or pressure from investors? Be honest, I won't judge. I'm not an anti-state maxi like some... I recognize the pragmatic need to follow the rules.
  2. The max fee for attached wallets is by default 1% of the transaction. 1% seems like a lot if, say, I want to withdraw 50k sats. On the other hand, 1% seems like too little (resulting in failed routes) if the transaction is small, like 100 sats.
    • How does SN deal with this?
    • How does it determine when to auto-withdraw?
    • Is every single zap a lightning transaction? Even if I want to zap just 1 sat?
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  1. Fear of financial regulators. Fear of having to do this later, when we know it will eventually need to be done. Fear of lightning wallets that support apps and the protocol not being ready when we'll need to depend on them. Fear of non-custodial lightning not maturing because no one wants to put in the effort to try. If anything SN's investors had a small bias again us changing this early. My investors are the good kind - I do what I want and they like it that way.
  2. Your first two questions will not be relevant after Nov. 5th as SN won't have custody of sats before they are sent to you (autowithdrawals were an intermediate solution). To your last question, if the sender and recipient are using attached wallets and 1 sat can be routed between them successfully, yes that is a lightning transaction. If 1 cannot be routed between them, the recipient will receive cowboy credits unless they've indicated (via their settings) they'd rather receive nothing in such cases.
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Fear of non-custodial lightning not maturing because no one wants to put in the effort to try.
Fuck yes
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This will create a lot of confusing among stackers. I repeat: you should separate "upvotes" from "zaps".
  • upvotes = use cowboy credits, stackers must buy them with sats from SN. These will not be able to withdraw, only circulate inside SN.
  • zaps = use real sats, with external wallets attached and stackers will give them SEPARATELY to anybody else
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Not to take the unpopular opinion, but stacker news was about using bitcoin and zapping them back and forth. That is what made is so unique. Not that cowboy credits will be different, just something we have to get used to. How will the algorithm and everything work with cowboy credits and zaps? @ek @k00b
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How will the algorithm and everything work with cowboy credits and zaps?
Exactly the same. CCs are sats as far as the algorithm is concerned since every CC was once a real sat. CCs become real sats again only through rewards.
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One reason may be that custodial services are under assault lately, so this is a safer solution long-term.
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Bingo ringo
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It do be like that. All the custodial wallets are closing. Even if it's just small sums for convenience.
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