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Civil Asset Forfeiture

I am a little reluctant to talk about this, but it's relevant to us on SN for a few reasons. I'm a retired lawyer, but I still represent old clients and friends once in a while.
I occasionally help out an out of state friend who owns a manufacturing company. One morning last week he discovered that his bank accounts had been frozen, which was very upsetting. He called his bank, but the manager refused to reveal the nature of the freeze nor any details. It was Bank of America. The amount of money that was frozen was approximately $60,000.
A day or two later I was contacted by the government, who knew I represented the corporation in the past. I was told that my client's funds had been seized as the result of a civil asset forfeiture. One of my friend's customers was being investigated for unrelated criminal activity, and the funds my friend had received in payment for manufactured product were supposedly the "fruits"of a crime.
I'm sure many of you have heard of these asset forfeiture proceedings, whereby innocent people can have their funds taken by the government. There was no suspicion that my client had done anything wrong, but the government intended to formally have my friend's money confiscated at the conclusion of the criminal case. I argued that this was unfair, and they explained the appellate process to me, which I already knew.
This of course angered my friend. He was still doing business with this customer, and he wondered whether this was the end of the matter or not. The government assured me that the only money subject to forfeiture was the $60,000 that was already frozen.

An Unexplained Glitch

I'm sure everyone read about the Bank Of America glitch the other day? My friend is in his early sixties with a heart condition. He has suffered a number of strokes in the past. The day he and I learned about this forfeiture action, he logged into his Bank Of America business account and saw a zero balance in an account that had held over $500,000 earlier in the day. These funds were used for daily transactions with his suppliers and customers. He naturally assumed the government had taken the money. This would spell the end of his business, since payments would bounce to suppliers and he couldn't meet payroll.
He began sweating and his face turned completely white. His wife was afraid he would die. She drove him to the emergency room. He got checked out, and happily he was okay. Later in the afternoon I called him to tell him about the glitch. He was relieved to see the correct balance once he logged in again.

Cliche: Bitcoin Fixes This

I don't know if it's my imagination, but I find myself noticing more and more the actual ramifications of not having custody over your assets. This was a dramatic, coincidental example which I will use to talk to my friend about bitcoin again. He understands it in principle, but doesn't see how he can make it work in his business. It would be complicated. At a minimum, he could hold his company treasury in bitcoin.
Maybe the fiat system has always been this bad and I just notice it more now, or maybe things really are beginning to unravel quickly. Whatever the case, self custody is everything. It's not just a nice sounding ideal.
531 sats \ 1 reply \ @Arceris 6 Oct
Oh my god. Civil Asset Forfeiture is so fucking bullshit when applied to the individual/property who may have done the deed.
But an innocent holder in due course? What the actual fuck?
Thank you for telling this story. It’s probably small time enough that IJ wouldn’t be interested. Fiat delenda est.
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I didn't go into detail in the post, but I have dealt with this before. It is more likely than not that I will get the money back for him. The injustice is more subtle. If you do the paperwork, jump through hoops, pay lawyer fees, and generally kiss the government's ass, they deign to give you YOUR money back, after much delay, as if they're benevolent masters doing you a favor.
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The same thing nearly happened with me (obviously not the heartattack). When REserve Bank banned (kinda) exchanges. My bank sent me a notice that I couldn't deposit money in my account until further notice. My transactions got checked but luckily, I've not made any big P2P conversions so they didn't investigated me and from then I've never tried exchanging Bitcoin for Fiat. I get enough fiat for my daily expenses and whatever is left, I buy Bitcoin P2P in very small amounts. One more thing, I don't even have $10 in my accounts.
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These banks are the ones that make us all slaves of the state. It's like we've to trust them because everyone does. We can't just live without them. We're so dependant. But, But only those have had the real Wealth who ever became their own bank. Remember those gold hoarders from Europe.... I believe Bitcoin has now given all of us a chance to have and run our own bank.
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A lot of truth there!
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45 sats \ 1 reply \ @Satosora 5 Oct
Its nice when you check your balance on the blockchain and it is still there. Dont have to worry about those pesky glitches.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @mf 5 Oct
Too bad 1sat always equals 1sat, cause i dont see those GaAINns 😂
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Bitcoin makes civil asset forfeiture almost a non-issue. Since they can't get access to your money in the first place, they can't put you in the position of needing to prove that you should get it back.
Of course that doesn't mean the state won't take draconian actions to separate us from our bitcoin, but that will be a different problem.
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It's not a cliché, it's a reality. Bitcoin is the real solution. That person would have more money today than when he put his money in the bank. He would have at least 1.5 BTC when the price was at 40k, today he would have the equivalent of 90k USD.
Define Bitcoin is the solution to everything
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43 sats \ 2 replies \ @Wumbo 5 Oct
One morning last week he discovered that his bank accounts had been frozen, which was very upsetting.
My question here is just a pragmatic one and of course "Bitcoin Fixes this" is the true solution.
Question: How many degrees of separation did the bank freeze?
Was just the business account or did they go for the personal accounts to? Have you heard of any "best practice" to limit exposure?
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Good question. In this case it was only the business account, but it's not a question of shielding liability like an asset protection specialist might advise. The government will pursue the money itself, wherever it flows. It makes no difference who owns the account or in what capacity.
As to the degree of separation, the person accused of criminal activity directly paid my client.
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wumbo 7 Oct
Another Civil Asset Forfeiture that I saw recently: #713559
Sounds like they took hers and the Father in relation to the husbands account.
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I hate everything about civil assets forfeiture, whether it's this kind of BS or the small town police gangs that use it to fund their salaries and bonuses. It seems like one of those evil things that should be obviously hated across all political positions, yet persists.
I'm glad your friend's okay, but what an awful experience.
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You should custody his bitcoin!
plus attorney client privilege
Also, give your friend xanax or ativan or clonopin or valium or all of the above because of his heart condition and anxiety
The B of A glitch the other day is another example of rising incompetence
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He's covered on the med front! Step 1, teach him more about bitcoin. Then teach HIM to self custody. Would you trust a lawyer with your stack? 😀
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no but you are retired and he knows where your dogs live lol
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @mf 5 Oct
it has always been like that through history. Good that you are noticing those things more and more, and maybe you've already noticed enough times, even in what seems non-economic related events, to see how much of "bitcoin fixes this" is true.
Get your friend on the orange train.
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Tennessee is notorious for seizure of cash and personal property from people passing through.
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 5 Oct
These examples will surely give them the motivation to start learning about bitcoin.
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Fuck banks
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one more reason to adopt bitcoin, thank you Sathosi Nakamoto
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43 sats \ 0 replies \ @Taft 5 Oct
Whatever the case, self custody is everything. It's not just a nice sounding ideal.
No, it's not just a nice sounding ideal. It's the truth. And I think lots of people will get it in the future too.
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If the government was in trouble, it would immediately print money. Your friend couldn't print money, could he?
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Very true. I guess he could try, but then he would have more problems😀
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bless u for sharing this story. the more people shine light on the problem, the faster we gonna squash the cockroach.
spoiler: the cockroach lives rent-free in our heads.
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It's not your money is a simplification of this situation.
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My memory has always been almost a bother, so I remember every time the demonic freaks running fiat banks have created problems for me, going back to when I was around 16 in the mid eighties!
Anyone wanna do an epic rant as a video stream? I'd be up to that any day and hour ;-)
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I don't have a bank account, so no worries. I'll be using my parent's account as long as possible and if required and after that I'll settle at a place where I can freely use Bitcoin. Prospects of a Bitcoin Standard in India are bleak at moment.
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Just a small question. Why in the world would he keep any fiat in a bank if he intended to save it? There are plenty of other opportunities for keeping “money” for transactional purposes. The fiat held by banks is their property, not his, according to the new rules.
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Been this way for a long time but seemingly getting worse. While not on this specific topic, Nik Bhatia and Caitin Long had an interesting chat that was published two days ago on Nik’s YouTube channel The Bitcoin Layer that definitely covers similar territory as your post.
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86 sats \ 13 replies \ @AG 6 Oct
@siggy47 not sure how this is post is related with ~Politics_And_Law as its contents are more focused on business-related events. I understand that "territorization" is sometimes subjective, but let me suggest that, perhaps in the future, when the subject has more to do with business topics, then posting in the ~AGORA territory would be more appropriate, so your content will reach a more relevant audience and productive conversation. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation ;)
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The post is about civil forfeiture, which is a law. It was not primarily about buying and selling stuff, or business in general. Civil asset forfeiture laws affect people whether or not they are involved in commerce.
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45 sats \ 7 replies \ @AG 6 Oct
omg, I don't even know what "civil forfeiture" is... Thanks for explaining though, it do make more sense now that I know you were a lawyer ;)
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It is a very strange, unjust law.
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if its soo bad (we all know it is) how come it is still a law, how this can be changed?
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The government knows they can get away with it. Here's an older article from the New Yorker : https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken
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I guess the easier way is to switch jurisdiction. We are always good to say there's something wrong here and there. Did you ever think you might be the one doing something wrong (unconsciously) and these are just the consequences of it? We, probably like many many many of us, does not even know what they are doing, we believe doing something because we have thought so, never verified. We always expect thing to change and continue doing everything as we have learned. To change this, start doing things differently, and you'll see the change. Especially with law related manners.
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this is eye-opening: there is a group with a mission to capture people into states.
"At the end of 2022, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (the agency mandated to prevent and reduce statelessness) counted 4.4 million stateless persons worldwide but estimated that the actual number may be over 10 million due to underreporting."
my theory is that very soon getting a citizenship will be no different than getting a google account: easy, free, and fun.
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101 sats \ 1 reply \ @galt 6 Oct
Asset seizures is typical communist playbook disguised in the west under shady regulations, the multiplication of these instances shows which directly the country is going to
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ah, a playbook! i will use this term on normies. a sports game analogy such as american football might actually work, since there are many silly "laws" there, which nonetheless have serious effects on people's lives.
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civil asset forfeiture sounds like legislation, not law. euphemism for not-your-cheese.
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Legislation is really a subset of law- law enacted by a legislative body. Whatever you call it, it's theft.
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43 sats \ 1 reply \ @zapsammy 6 Oct
regardless of the rhetoric, we all agree on the reality of the situation. dishonor of the trust occurs very often, thru presumptions.
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Exactly
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