Is it ethical to borrow in fiat, to buy bitcoin? Obviously it's legal, but ethically...it feels off.
I didn't think much about it, until this post came up recently: Starve the State, starve the banks, protect yourself, your privacy & liberty. v1
Here's some quotes from the comments:
0 sats \ 13 replies \ @siggy47 27 Sep I'm pro fiat debt to buy bitcoin. Let the government inflate it away. This "debt is slavery notion" is to make sure there aren't too many people joining the cantillon party. reply
43 sats \ 12 replies \ @mf 28 Sep You do you, but that only legitimizes what they do, and fucks the ones that cannot afford to do the same. Starve the enemies, not your brothers. reply
21 sats \ 2 replies \ @pillar 28 Sep Fiat will be printed. The printing will debase fiat holders. Any printed fiat can be used to buy Bitcoin, or for anything else. When it goes to buy and hold Bitcoin, it pushes the BTC/fiat price up. Thus, besides hurting fiat holders, you reward all Bitcoin holders with more purchasing power. I will never disagree with printing money being an evil thing that worsens the world. But, if it will be printed, I can't think of a better use for it than to make Bitcoin rise. I also see it as a peculiar implementation of Alinsky's fourth rule of his rules for radicals. reply
34 sats \ 1 reply \ @mf 28 Sep It seems you are making the assumption that you are simply using the existing printing, which is not true. If you keep borrowing more fiat, you are increasing the print, not using the print, as you put it. reply 23 sats \ 0 replies \ @pillar 28 Sep I believe that, for any given range of time, the printing has a top limit (on the infinite long run, there is no limit). Western banks and other seigniorage institutions will only print so much in a year. They can't print unlimited amounts in that span, because they are still not Venezuela-grade dumb and greedy. But within those limits, they will print. It's in their interest to print. Because of what you pointed out: they are looking for the interest on the principal they are creating out of nothing. So, that fiat will be printed to someone, for some reason. When it comes to retail loans, I'm pretty confident they don't give a flying fuck what its usage will be. The way I see it, if don't take the loan offered to me, they will give it to someone else. So yes, I would agree with you that I'm making the assumption that I'm just using a part of the inevitable to-be-printed pool.

I also remembered reading in the book The Hard Boiled Egg Index - Surviving Zimbabwe's Hyperinflation by Kudzai Joseph Gumunyu, his chapter on how he (as a senior bank employee) was able to buy a house with rapidly inflating currency, loaned to him at a favorable rate of interest.
When we bought this house in August 2004, the price was 72 percent of my gross annual salary, which was a bargain. By July 2007 (three years later), I could take one ZWD$500,000 debased note (by “000”), now worth US$1.67 at parallel market rates, from my pocket and repay the mortgage, which was supposed to be repaid in twenty years. Moreover, this note was only 0.49 percent of my monthly salary of the same month, and if available, I could have two hundred of these in my pocket monthly, ceteris paribus. Although the mortgage was done aboveboard, I felt I was cheating somebody somewhere. It did not sound right that such a substantial mortgage would be so easy to expunge.
What do you think? Is this true?
The way I see it, if don't take the loan offered to me, they will give it to someone else. So yes, I would agree with you that I'm making the assumption that I'm just using a part of the inevitable to-be-printed pool.
Its unethical
Using the benefits of an immoral system to enrich yourself while hiding under the guise of "I'm speeding the decline of fiat" is an easy cop out.
Ethically speaking I think the best move is to completely separate yourself from the system. In fiat you are either the abuser or the abused.
That being said, Hustle will conduct an unethical act and take out a loan to buy bitcoin, because he has access to cheap loans and he doesn't have the will to forgo the allure of grabbing easily obtained fiat and converting it into perfect perfect bitcoin. The allure is too strong for him, but he acknowledges that its a slimy game which shouldn't be considered altruistic or helpful to the cause by any stretch of the imagination.
The beast is in its death throws, accelerationism is often an excuse to sarcastically dunk on the retarded.
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I think the best move is to completely separate yourself from the system. In fiat you are either the abuser or the abused.
I agree with that, although I don't think borrowing fiat to buy more bitcoin is unethical.
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So are you saying what Saylor is doing is unethical? I think 25-50% of maxis take on debt to buy bitcoin...
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I have often thought what Saylor is doing is unethical....and now I am hardening that thinking....
I think Jeff Booth said something along the lines of it being impossible to measure a system from within the system? or something like that...anyway what always pops into my mind when I hear even him talk about EgoDeath and really all the VC investors...etc... is that so often they talk about the 40-60% returns Bitcoin has had year-over-year since inception....and then how they decide what a "good" investment is by whether or not the return they will get will outperform that 40-60% metric....and I want to puke....
Maybe its just me - but that thought is nothing more than measuring Bitcoin from within the current system - and quite frankly it is shit! If you only invest in new companies or ideas based on beating Bitcoins returns viewed in FIAT terms - you are missing the forest for the trees....
In my stupid mind - The only way to achieve being on a Bitcoin standard is to be on a Bitcoin Standard. (period-full stop as they say)
Now - of course - we are still living in a world that operates almost entirely on a FIAT standard (with a parallel Bitcoin Standard taking hold) so we all have to "hedge" to some degree - It seems to me to be more like this....
Those with the most "data/value" in the larger system - have the least to gain by moving to the new system and vice/versa those with the least "data/value" in the larger system have the least to lose and therefor fewer barriers to move into the newer system (when they deem it fair and conducive to them).
The larger "data/value" holders need to recognize this paradigm and be willing to expend their holdings/savings in the old system in order to grow the new one...however so many are still confused about what the actual return is that they are looking for....they are still thinking in the FIAT mindset of HODL your savings to carry into the future vs. the Bitcoin mindset of abundance in value through scarcity and growing the users/network/new system making it more secure as fast as possible to ensure it doesn't become simply another "pawn" in the 5-d game of chess being played by the ruling class....(nothing against them-as most likely don't even know the game they are playing and have even less of a clue that they accelerate the hate/greed/contempt that proliferates under the FIAT system)
Sorry not Sorry
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I see what your saying, I do think many bitcoiners need to be realistic about the time frame it will take for the world to operate on a bitcoin standard. I don't know if we will see it in this century, and I think many fiat people in Bitcoin understand why not make extra money for now - knowing that they won't live to see the hyperbitcoinized world.
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Hyperbitcoinization is a personal relationship to the rest of the world.
You can be hyperbitcoinized right now, although it would be a bit difficult.
Every year becoming hyperbitcoinized gets easier
Until there is a tipping point to where it becomes more natural to live on a bitcoin standard, than to not.
You don't need 50 percent of the world to adopt bitcoin before you start living on a bitcoin standard. Hyperbitcoinization will hit TheWildHustle hard in 2025. He gets his direct deposit in bitcoin and has been doing so for more than a year. He'll graduate to getting his direct deposit and all sat streams sent to his node, will leverage NWC for budgeting, Clams for whatever fiat accounting nonsense is required of him, something like a bitcoin well BillPay service or something similar, will only spend money at places that accept bitcoin, like beef initiative, Oshi, and Shopstr. Will keep an eye on local merchant adoption.
The future is here, just not evenly distributed. Prices will fall and personal finance will get drastically easier for me, as my neighbors will see price inflation and the betrayal of his most trusted third party intermediaries.
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52 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatsMate 8 Oct
Right! For example I am here in Arizona, there isn't a single grocery store, bar or restaurant that accepts bitcoin (check out bitcoin maps).
I still try to buy with sats at a farmers market - but it is more unnatural and I am forcing the situation almost. I think there are areas in the world where it is 10/10 easy, and there are areas where you are forcing a square through round hole.
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like everything in the world..."what comes around goes around"... or you know - two sides of the same coin :)
If it was easy everyone would be doing it - we will get there all in good time!
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I absolutely hear you on the time frame.... It is so very difficult to predict the future of anything :)
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52 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatsMate 8 Oct
Yea, who knows we may all be surprised haha, it is always best to taper expectations...
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agree - aim high, shoot low :)
though I find it hard to shake the nagging feeling I get when I look at what is happening to the entire world...
like if it was just the economy....maybe it would be a while yet or if it was just one war in some far off country....maybe it would be a while yet or just one country suffering through hyperinflation of their currency....maybe it would be a while yet....
shoot - even if it was just one asshole speeding down the street in a rush to get to their next (fill in the blank - with whatever FIAT value scam you want)...maybe it would be a while yet....
the world just feels like something is more compressed, like the vibrational frequencies are screaming in a high pitched cacophony waiting for some relief valve to open full throttle and calm everything down a bit...likely some future someone will be like man I wish we had that screaming, fast paced energy back...when things are slow and we are just trudging along....but it will be for the better I think...
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If you grok Bitcoin and have the means to leave fiat behind entirely. I think playing in fiat to accumulate more corn is a bit unethical.
<So are you saying what Saylor is doing is unethical?
Yes.
How much Bitcoin does a person need, before leaving the system of theft it was designed to replace? Thousands of Bitcoin? Why seek loans and yield if you live in a deflationary world with hard money? Is it money for moneys sake?
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Listen, if the system’s printing cash like there’s no tomorrow, why wouldn’t you leverage it to secure something that actually holds value? The real unethical move here is sitting back and letting the Cantillon insiders keep playing musical chairs while the rest of us get left without a seat.
You’re worried about borrowing in fiat to buy Bitcoin? Why? Because it might hurt the fragile feelings of the system that’s been screwing the little guy for decades? Miss me with that. Every time someone uses that printed fiat to buy Bitcoin, they're doing more to undermine the monopoly of the dollar than any hashtag or passive protest ever will.
The real kicker is you act like the banks won’t loan that money to someone else if you don’t take it. They want you to borrow. That’s how they keep the whole game going. So yeah, if they’re going to print and loan, I’m damn sure going to take what’s mine and put it somewhere they can’t touch.
This isn’t about screwing over the next person. It’s about playing the game before it plays you.
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Its more than possible to earn money from unethical actions. I don't want a seat with the Cantillonairs, I want to be left alone.
With bitcoin you don't really need to play their fiat game. Leave your abuser.
Its not a race to stack more bitcoin than your enemy. Bitcoin is money for enemies.
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I think it’s perfectly ethical to abuse an unethical system. Have at it. Just make sure you can meet your debt obligations. Stay humble.
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I'd say it's perfectly ethical to exploit those inflicting an abusive system onto others. You want to make sure that the consequences either fall on you or on someone else who deserves it.
Borrowing fiat to buy bitcoin fits that mold. Either you're wrong and you pay or you're right and the bank pays (or it's win-win, I guess).
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But the bank never pays, because it creates money out of thin air and collects interest. If they buy bitcoin with that interest they can win too.
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It's not that the bank never pays. It's just that the bank would never have to pay if they made smart decisions.
If inflation outpaces the interest rates on a loan (as has happened on my mortgage) then the bank will end up with less purchasing power than it started with.
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If inflation outpaces the interest rates on a loan (as has happened on my mortgage) then the bank will end up with less purchasing power than it started with.
But is that really the case? From what I understand it creates the money to be loaned out of thin air through fractional reserve banking. They don't lend from their reserves or deposits. They gain the interest and lose nothing, because it's not their own money that's being inflated away. But since the loans need to meet the fractional reserve requirements, one could view loans at rates below the rate of inflation as an opportunity cost.
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In the US, there are no reserve requirements on lending and there haven't been for several years, so clearly there's some other constraint. If banks could just spend arbitrarily out of thin air, why wouldn't each bank just buy every real asset in the world?
When the bank lends out money at a particular interest rate, it still needs the interest payments to cover its operating expenses. If inflation is outpacing the interest rates, then the bank will be operating at a loss.
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Well that was a nicer way of saying what I was saying.
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The part I don't feel like I understand very well is this...are you actually abusing the unethical system, or are you contributing to the abuse of the people who are already being slaughtered by inflation?
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It's hard not to follow the incentives, and there are incentives to short fiat. To not follow the incentives you'd have to break your mind and become what the communists wanted people to become, an incentive non-following creature. Such a creature would end up taken advantage of, enslaved, abused and poor.
Shorting fiat also involves liquidation risk, so you're paying a price for it in the risk and the higher your leverage, the greater the risk.
Perhaps the idea that borrowing fiat to buy bitcoin is unethical is a psyop sowed by the powers that be to keep us from stacking more? Just a thought.
I tend to view it as a game. The goal is to maximize your score, which is the amount of sats stacked. If you don't play it well, others will and you'll be their victim.
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Abusing might not be the right word but you are taking advantage of the unethical system because you know it requires persistent devaluation of the money. But you bring up a fair point. By borrowing fiat you are contributing to the expansion of the money supply which could potentially harm others. This monetary supply expansion will happen with or without your involvement and your involvement is a mere blip but I think philosophically it is a reasonable question. I guess it comes down to if you think the positives outweigh the negatives.
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34 sats \ 2 replies \ @mf 4 Oct
You alone are indeed a blip, but all the blips together make the majority of the inflation of the money supply.
Getting loans and shorting fiat is NOT the same thing. That would be the same (because it is) as saying that robbing someone to then go buy btc. Is it still ethical? Of course not. Never was, and never will be, regardless if there are other that also do it.
It's like that old saying: raping doesn't magically become a good thing just because the majority supports it.
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Getting loans to buy bitcoin is essentially shorting fiat.
Your robbery analogy sucks. Taking out a loan is not taking something that doesn’t belong to you. It is borrowing something that doesn’t belong to you that you must give back.
If you want to argue it is unethical fine but your robbery analogy and rape quote is just stupid.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mf 5 Oct
You may want to know that a loan, by creating new currency, will suck value from the rest of the poll. What do you call taking something that belong to others? And habitus does not automatically equal good.
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There is a bit of collateral damage though. Unless you think accelerationism is an antidote for the public.
And you'd imagine it would be better to leave the drunken abusive uncle rather than to take revenge and start beating him in return. I'm thinking it would be better to shift your focus and energy away from him if possible, especially if your orange taxi is waiting for you outside honking the horn.
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Regardless of ethics, it inevitable. It's just simple game theory.
Of course it would be better if no one did that (cooperation). That way we would smoothly transition into bitcoin system without people getting massively rekt.
But if someone defects and does that, others will get taken advantage one. So the only counter play is to defect yourself and also borrow fiat to get bitcoin.
Also this game was played for decades by rich with other hard assets already.
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Also this game was played for decades by rich with other hard assets already.
Yes, they bought real estate and stocks. But bitcoin is more accessible, divisible etc., which makes it a fairer game.
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Fiat is unethical. I’m helping end it by speculatively attacking it.
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if you have a problem with using your money to buy btc, your only other choice is to have people pay you in btc, which is fine if you can find them
i use btc as savings, i have to use my fiat money to get some as that is my savings vehicle of choice
people in poor countries also swap fiat to get bitcoin so they preserve purchasing power.
maybe on a sailor level you could argue ethics, but some guy trying to swap his pasos for bitcoin is not an enemy or abuser, he's the abused and he's swapping a weak asset for a hard asset, failure to do so would mean his own financial destruction
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when talking about taking a loan to buy btc, shorting the currency basically, i think the ethics are maybe more questionable in countries with far weaker currencies, but when doing it with gbp, dollar, euro, i don't feel it's super unethical because you're evening the financial playing field IMO and the risk is higher because the time it takes to infalte the debt away is far longer
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Interesting point.
In the US, many people could potentially get a loan, and buy bitcoin with that money. But in a country with a far weaker currency, only the well-connected will be able to get that loan at a reasonable rate of interest.
Like in the example I gave in my post, with the author of the book The Hard Boiled Egg Index - Surviving Zimbabwe's Hyperinflation. He was able to borrow a huge sum of money at an easy interest rate, because he was a senior employee at a bank.
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yeah, in his case, he's doing something akin almost to insider trading. although I'm sure growing up with the poverty of Zimbabwe,m it will reshape a person's mind., survive at all costs.
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Actually if you read the book, everyone in Zimbabwe pretty much was desperately scrambling to get their Zim dollars into something else - anything else, at all. So I'm not sure that it could be described as insider trading.
So it's a tricky situation, ethically. And he definitely had his doubts about it.
I think I'll write up a post about the book. It's super interesting, especially to bitcoin/econ history nerds
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ooh I'm torn on this one, on one hand fiat i feel is an unethical system to begin with, so attacking it by shorting it as best you can seems ethical to me, you can short it by just buying within your means, but if someone wants to give you preferential access to capital to short it, what's the real difference if you can avoid blowing yourself up?
You're just defering your future wages to realise the gain in Bitcoin now
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Hmm, I personally don't - but I don't blame those that do. I definitely would be alot richer in bitcoin terms for taking out loans. In the end, don't look at it as an ethical/unethical play - rather pencil out the numbers and make a move if the numbers make sense, and you can sleep well at night with this kind of leverage.
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Is it unethical to not start a billion dollar company and buy more bitcoin with it?
Is it unethical that bitcoiners have not given me bitcoin despite the obvious fact that I figured out how to maximally accelerate bitcoinization?
These are both silly questions, but yours is sillier. They all must have the same answer.
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Want some endless fiat for your precious bitcoin?
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All’s fair in love and war. Yeah it ethical, look we are so early still it’s only obvious to our echo chamber.
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Creating more work backed by Bitcoin by working to earn it seems like a better option than borrowing fiat money to make purchases.
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Yeah, it’s just fiat that is the unethical part. Taking a loan out for any purpose should be ethically the same wether buying a house or bitcoin.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 4 Oct
I remember reading in When Money Dies some smart people were doing this. Borrow money to buy property while the currency was in hyperinflation.
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I guess as long as you can make the payments for the debt without selling your stack your winning and you maybe able to claim the interest on the debt on tax like with lending to buy shares
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Is that what saylor is doing with his company? He keeps taking on debt to buy bitcoin.
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For Muslims, it's actually pretty simple. If there a usury involved then it's not permissible (haram) even if the end goal is good. Let the free market does its work.
Free your mind, don't play the fiat game. We already have Bitcoin, stack sats.
P/S: Muslims still use fiat because it's the only option most of the time, but if we can choose then we choose.