I liked Saylor, now I think maybe he is Bitcoins biggest problem \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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I liked Saylor, now I think maybe he is Bitcoins biggest problem

807 sats \ 66 comments \ @DesertDave 19 Sep bitcoin

I used to watch all of Michael Saylors interviews. I loved the way he explained things. He has great metaphors. He helped me understand the importance of bitcoin. He is a great speaker. I really thought he was a positive force in the space.

After listening to his latest with Saif, it is very clear to me that he isn't getting it. He is constantly contradicting himself. He wants the old world to stay and be bullish on Bitcoin. He is quite blind to the writing on the wall.

Looking at the comments, people still seem to think his shit doesn't stink overall.

Since he holds so much Bitcoin and he has so much influence in the space, is he perhaps one of the biggest problems in the space? Does it matter what he says? I would love to hear from you all. 💚

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286 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 19 Sep

12 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitalion 20 Sep

🤣🤣 Saylor 🤮🤮

53 sats \ 19 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Sep

Read here: #446513

42 sats \ 17 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

Looks like you have been paying attention.

11 sats \ 16 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Sep

for long long long time I was watching Saylor... and yes I paid attention to his words and not cheering up every time he appeared on the screen.

In July 2021 I wrote this short article and I included a warning about Saylor then.

43 sats \ 14 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

Being a skeptic can be great. We need people like you. I can be too optimistic, trusting and foolish at times. I liked him until recently. This interview made it very clear to me.

141 sats \ 13 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Sep

I am a bit skeptic in general, but not a real "doomer" that sees everything black and hopeless.

I am just a good observer, and I save a lot of information that later I re-consult it and analyze. Then I put all together and I have the BIG PICTURE.

That's why I am always right and I speak about something only when I have enough information to be sure that I am right. I do not have a crystal ball to foresee the future, I just analyze data with skepticism and clear mind.

I have many years in Bitcoinlandia (12+ yrs), observing a lot what is going on and taking notes...

or who knows... maybe I am from the future :)

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

In short, I am too damn sensitive some times.

22 sats \ 9 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

That's good. I think bitcoiners should have optimism. We are lucky to be here this early. I am horrible at remembering things and holding on to the past. That's why I see you as an opposing force in a sense. I am on a path that is about releasing all that and trusting in myself. I think there is a place for both perspectives. Both have value. It takes a different approach to get different people to the same conclusion. I think you and I both want a lot of the same things. Some respond to information best. And you are the goat in regards to information in the space. And I have seen that you have helped so many people here. I am grateful. I plan to be friendly with you in the future and not let my ego get in the way of seeing your value. I have done that in the past for sure.

99 sats \ 8 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Sep

You should read this "Darth translation guide" #147162

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

And I don't like being told what I should do. Lol

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42 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

But looking at the post is helpful. I know it's love under that dark mask somewhere.

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21 sats \ 4 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I think you and I are the opposite polarities on stacker. It's all perfect.

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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @nichro 19 Sep

Are you Satoshi

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

As much as we all are. Bitcoin is an idea, a manifestation of the collective. Satoshi is all of us.

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I sometimes disagree with your approach but I acknowledge and respect your intelligence and conviction.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

Thank you.

210 sats \ 1 reply \ @knorozov 19 Sep

He disappointed me in the pod with Saif. The amount of times he took Saifs argument as a moral one (what Saif thinks is good) instead of a logical one (what Saif thinks will happen naturally) was embarrassing. It looked like he was triggered. Probably the fact that he's not half as smart as Saifedean.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

That's what I feel. That fact that he was so triggered and repeated himself over and over without really listening is what was telling for me. I get needing to keep on the dl for him. But why so triggered?

33 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 19 Sep

I have had a lot of ambivalence towards Saylor for a while. One thing, though. I remember listening to him last cycle, maybe 6 months or so after he bought his initial bitcoin, he was giving his normal rant which sounds great the first 3 or 4 times you hear it, and he said something to the effect of "and if regulators ever get too difficult to deal with, I have the keys, and there might be a boating accident. " That reassured me at the time. Now, I'm not sure if he even holds the keys to most of that bitcoin.

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I doubt he does. He seems to have a lot of faith in the "trusty" banks.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 19 Sep

It does seem that way.

53 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 19 Sep

Criticisms are fair. That was a bad pod but you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. Even if he believed Bitcoin was going to displace the USD, US Bond market, US banking system, it would be insane for him to say that publicly.

He identifies Bitcoin as a store of value asset for a reason. As a public company MSTR needs to work within the parameters of the current system and with the current regulatory regime. He needs to be careful what he says, not to piss off the wrong powerful people.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I agree with you. But also, he seemed offended, and hot headed, which tells me he still has faith in the old system.

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I like Jeff Booth's take:

From his nostr- I’m writing this because I keep getting asked to comment on Saylor/Saif video even though my position hasn’t changed.

The natural state of the free market is deflation which means all prices fall forever in Bitcoin (assuming it stays decentralized and secure)

Free market economies are more productive meaning faster deflation (or real wealth gains by falling prices)

That system is incompatible with an inflationary monetary system meaning one of those systems must fail.

Either:

A system based on truth, hope, and abundance for all 8 billion people on the planet driven by a free market economy and all prices fall relative to bitcoin forever. This means Bitcoin is used as a medium of exchange and freedom tech spreads to the world through lightning, Liquid, Fedimint, Cashu, etc.

A control system. An extractive rent seeking system that is NOT the free market (similar to the one we have had for 5000 years that resets every 100 or so years through war) continues to centralize by having you believe price of bitcoin is going up in fiat which makes the surveillance state stronger. This eventually centralizes Bitcoin - custodians, media, regulation (funded from the same manipulation of money) where it is attacked from layer 2. (Similar to gold)

While these ideas may “seem” compatible in the short term because you want Bitcoin to go up in fiat. What it really means is that you are giving your energy and strength to the system centralizing the world by converting Bitcoin to Fiat….to then measure prices.

Quite simply - If Bitcoin is only a store of value, it fails as a store of value.

Ps - It won’t fail. #1 is inevitable in time because too many (and more each day) have seen behind the curtain and are determined to build path #1.

Many of you here - the people that inspire me every day. You make a difference with every word, thought and action. Almost did that in all caps per nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx because it’s so important.

Referring to # 1 above…..There is no second best.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 19 Sep

I hope he is right but the ETFs are surely increasing the institutional custody ratio and when that gets to a high enough level then an executive order 6102B becomes practicable...

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @rebel_nomad 19 Sep

Any company working with valuable information will have to collaborate with intel agencies, so there is that...

Also his mental models are too perfect, except for one occasion where he said "maaaaybe we might need something like Monero" it is all from a corporate, rule following and square-headed perspective, yes.

I still think its better to have him around than not, just imagine how it would be if Blackrock would be the only corporate voice in the space...

The real problem also is that sooo few dare to rebel openly, if you ever hint at not going along with any shitty rules and illegal, dangerous laws using Bitcoin everyone will flee or accuse you of being a fed!

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

That makes sense. It isn't easy being a real rebel. I trust that Bitcoin doesn't care and it won't really matter in the end.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @rebel_nomad 19 Sep

I have a few factors that makes it far easier than for most to simply disregard it all, but still it requires quite a bit of wargaming of course...

Now lets see if I make it to the Himalayas soon, I have this sneaking suspicion that I might have a Yeti accident in the future haha!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

Me too. For me it's just a big show. It's kind of fun it watch it unfold. I feel good about my setup regardless. Bring it on.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

That makes sense.

37 sats \ 4 replies \ @orangecheckemail_isthereany 19 Sep

I did find it strange that it appeared Saylor could not understand the concept or the utility of savings without yield. Your savings don't have to yield anything on a sound money standard, isn't that literally the main point of bitcoin for many people? People who don't want to invest, who aren't interested in yield but intead just want to keep what they've got (without risks that come with investments) plus potentially becoming the beneficiary of innovation/invention-driven price reductions. Isn't the whole point that the need for yield disappears in many cases because the only reason people need yields is because the money continually inflates. When that problem is solved then a whole classes of yield-bearing investment instruments become unnecessary namely those that are used as an alternative for saving because saving money doesn't work if the money is broken.

Another thing which I found very strange happened during the part where they were talking about whether credit will still exist deep into a free market on a bitcoin standard. I tend to agree with Saylor that there will exist a supply and a demand for credit in a free market on a bitcoin standard. I think Saylor made some good points. But then Saylor went on to claim that Saif wants to ban credit seconds after Saif said literally the opposite. And multiple times before that Saif repeated that he was not making any claims about what ought to happen, but instead about what he thinks will happen as a natural result of the economic logic / the incentive structure. Saylor should have kept arguing on that same level instead of inventing straw men to attack. That was disappointing.

Still I like Saylor alot and one of the big reasons for this is his focus on remaining constructive but that quality sadly could have been on better display this episode.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @standardcrypto 19 Sep

"In the glorious United States, a Mr. John M. Perry lent to the US Government 10000 dollars in gold, on the understanding that he will be repaid later on 10000 dollars in gold of the same standard, and meanwhile 4.5% interest each year. All this according to the law and obeying all the proper forms mandated by whatever regulation in force at the time."

http://trilema.com/2013/the-endless-story-of-korea/#selection-51.0-51.354

don't lend your bitcoins.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @orangecheckemail_isthereany 19 Sep

I have little doubt that the use of credit will reduce much. Instead of taking out a loan I suspect many will simply save money for a few years and start their business out of their savings.

Generational wealth will be feasible for small income families and the accumulated "money under the mattress" might be used by children and grandchildren etc to start a business or buy a house.

I'd expect the demand for borrowing money to be smaller because money can again function as savings technology. And the demand for lending out money at interest to be smaller (One of the reasons that people lend out their money disappears under a sound money. Savings don't have to produce yield if there's no inflation. In that world you can just save the money. 0 yield keeps up with inflation just fine in that system.)

I'd nevertheless expect some people to still opt for a loan e.g. when they want to keep full ownership of their company. They will pay the interest from the profits of the business after it got off the ground using the borrowed money. And I suspect they'll find a counter-party willing to take the risk of the business failing in order to earn money in the form of interest, The one who takes out the loan would face a risk that the money appreciates as it covers a growing economy and therefore the real value of the sum that is owed increases. It may be more difficult to extract a given amount of money out of the economy in the form of profits e.g. because of innovation, invention and competition force a business to lower prices.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I agree with most of that. It was interesting how triggered he got. For me that is a huge factor. It is easy for me to see that he felt challenged and that there are parts of the picture he doesn't want to see. I think it's all good for Bitcoin regardless..everyone is on a different journey with it and in the end time will tell. I have a feeling Saylor will get humbled at some point.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 19 Sep

He's between two worlds. There are probably things he believes in, but being in his position he doesn't want to say. And got angry when Saif pushed him to the wall and kind of forced him to admit.

One telling example was when he said he wanted the transition from fiat to bitcoin to be slow, and Saif laughed pointing out that what Saylor is doing is accelerating the collapse of fiat and not slowing it down.

32 sats \ 1 reply \ @Butterfinger 19 Sep

I see it as a process, bitcoin is a purging machine. Bitcoin changes you, if you get stucked or refused to change you get purged, Saylor will get purged if he doesn't change his course.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I agree. It's only a matter of time.

110 sats \ 3 replies \ @TwoLargePizzas 19 Sep

Saylor was certainly in a bad mood in that interview but nothing that he said really surprised me.

Billionaires have been using lending and leverage to get and stay rich for as long as I can remember. They do it because it works. The model is very simple, buy and hold valuable assets, borrow against them and buy more. Never sell. Pass them on to your children and repeat.

It blows my mind when people are surprised by this. It blows my mind even more when people are delusional enough to think it's going to suddenly change overnight.

Saylor speaks publicly about it but I highly doubt he's the only one. There's plenty of wealthy people that keep a much lower profile. It's a good thing we get some insight into how they think.

Lastly, timelines are extremely important. It's one thing to see a different future for Bitcoin but we might be off significantly about how long it's going to take. On that journey it's not crazy to make the observation that the fiat system and regulations will persist.

Making observations is not the same as advocacy. There are many things I don't like about the fiat system but I'm not delusional enough to think it's going to disappear in my lifetime.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

I think once we are experiencing hyper inflation things will change very quickly. But I am not going to pretend I have any idea of what that will look like. I think in the future banks and the old ways of lending will be completely obsolete. But again, I really have no clue. I want to see it all burn so I my opinions are certainly extreme.

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @TwoLargePizzas 20 Sep

It seems inevitable that hyper inflation of the US dollar will happen sooner or later. The hard part is predicting exactly when or how that will play out though. One might even argue it's already happening but we're still in the 'slowly' part of 'slowly then suddenly'.

People that get hurt most by hyperinflation are typically those that hold most of their wealth in the currency being inflated. That's not the case for Saylor so he'll probably be okay. Although, there might be second order effects like a 6102 attack, capital controls or other regulations that make it difficult for MicroStrategy to move their holdings. But don't forget, Saylor has also said he holds about 17,000 BTC in his personal stash which he probably has in self custody so even if MicroStrategy gets burnt he personally will still be extraordinarily wealthy.

As for banks, I agree the current fractional reserve, lender of last resort, bailout model won't work on a Bitcoin standard. But I don't think banks will cease to exist entirely. They'll more likely transform onto a different model more like the old traditional lending models of the past.

That's my opinion for what it's worth, but again predicting the future, especially many decades out is fraught with speculation. I try to not let my emotions about what I want to cloud my decisions and instead just do my best to understand the current state of the world.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 20 Sep

That all makes sense to me. I didn't know he had that much personal stash. No one can predict what is coming but I have a feeling it's going to be stranger than we can imagine and rip our faces off. I am just grateful to be out here off grid with my little mining setup. I feel as prepared as I can be. I know I have no interest in banks, politics and all that anymore. I only can take care of myself and my family. It's going to get even more interesting I think.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 19 Sep

Have always thought Saylor is a shyster.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @a40ecaacec 23 Sep

I completely agree. I tried, but I could never accept his ‘never spend your bitcoin’ thesis.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @tenshi 20 Sep

Saylor showed his ass. I've listened to many podcasts where Saif is critical of the guest, but it's always straight to the point. Saylor took this personally and it showed. The comments below his interviews are always "just let him talk". The one time he gets challenged he acts like a child. After all his preaching about counter party risk he's going to put his bitcoin in a fucking bank for 5%. He's trying to play both sides and it's painfully obvious. He is not the God king

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 20 Sep

Greed always catches up with Bitcoin. We will see..

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @02bcd3eeb0 20 Sep

He has kinda fucked himself honestly. Public figure, public company, public purchases.

It seems like he's trying really hard to be a good boy and say the right things so the government will let him keep his coins.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @a40ecaacec 24 Sep

So true, after you choose to switch from being a private person to a public person, with a public company you are forced to play by the government rules and being a good dog and obey your master.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 20 Sep

That makes sense. I feel like he must be conflicted.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 19 Sep

This one was kinda painful to listen to. It seems like he's waiting to lend out bitcoin to generate yield. I just don't see who would do this? And at what rate?

Someone borrowing BTC to buy a house might not ever be able to pay it back. This is because on a bitcoin standard our salaries go down over time.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheWildHustle 19 Sep

He's pretty much lost it.

Anyone with that much bitcoin will start acting crazy eventually.

Slay your heroes freaks.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @BeeAye 19 Sep

a bitcoin standard post monetary premium appreciation means you actually need to do shit people want/need or you are fucked. Saylors whole shtick is the same as any grubby hodler that doesnt create value in the real world. they wanna get rich doing nothing.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @jerrybature 19 Sep

I didn't listen to the podcast; until then, I will reserve my comments.

11 sats \ 6 replies \ @Satosora 19 Sep

He has been saying some weird things lately. I feel he might not be evolving with the times.

20 sats \ 5 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

It must be challenging for him. He wants his cake and to eat it to. I wonder how this will play out. I feel like greed always catches up eventually. Will he sell eventually?

11 sats \ 4 replies \ @Satosora 19 Sep

The weird thing is that he keeps taking on debt to buy bitcoin. Eventually he is going to have to pay those debts.

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

Seems like he is playing a dangerous game. But I can't see what the outcome might be. But I can see he lacks conviction. Eventually that will make something shift I feel. He is to greedy.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 19 Sep

Yes. He is becoming famous for being famous. Like the Kardashians.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @konstantin21 19 Sep

in many cases the debt is paid back in stock. in the cases where its actual money its a 1% interest rate that they could easily cover with the marginal increase in their revenues but leverage is dangerous even if its very intelligently engineered.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

All nonsense illusions. It's going to come down somehow. Bitcoin is the only true signal of energy over time it seems. I don't understand the fiat games but I can see truth.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave OP 19 Sep

Simple but important question.. does Michael Saylor hold keys for Bitcoin on cold storage or is it all on paper. Maybe that's where his greed catches up eventually.