623 sats \ 3 replies \ @tolot 28 May freebie \ parent \ on: Why can't you buy ecash from a Cashu mint? bitcoin
This argument is actually nonsense: if you're willing to phrase it like that then "Bitcoin is actually an account system where people exchange between each other the ability to exchange in the future some accounts".
Moreover, there are no "accounts" in ecash. What the actual heck...
Ecash makes CUSTODIANS less invasive with respect to their users, nobody ever talked about "private bitcoin transactions" because there are no bitcoin transactions in ecash systems.
This argument is actually nonsense: the mint only knows that someone requested some ecash tokens, does not know the tokens and does not know the person that requested that. can you prove that "the mint still sees everything?" If you can, please do it and submit a paper to some cryptograpy mailinglist proving it. If you cannot prove that the blinding is broken, don't say it.
Okay, if there are better tools to make users private in purely custodial systems then please name them. Can you name a few? Don't say "not using custodians" because that's not the point.
Where's the lie? Too easy to say it like that. Please, point to the lie.
These actually already exist and have pretty much infinite funding by damn fiat printers shitcoiners. Look at GNU Taler, that is a project of the EU Commission and YES, it is a fucking shitshow and shithole for privacy. If Fiat shitcoiners of the banking system would use fedimint or cashu as their ecash protocols for custodians the world would be in a much better place. Period.
Again, don't say "everyone shall be self custoding" because people just do not do it. Period. You can dream that but it's not happening. Thus we must ALSO make improvements on the custodian systems.
I don't agree with people that custodians are the way, but they are just here and they fucking sucks, so we're better off if a tiny tiny tiny group of developers is working on an alternative. That's not like "Core is pivoting to custodial", that's a bunch of devs doing very good implementations of a cryptographic system that certainly will improve custodians and, in the future, may help us to make better tools for bitcoin sovreign products.
As a remark, I just remind you that Wasabi uses blinded signatures for their coordinator...that's a good usage of that cryptographic fancy stuff that you dislike, innit?
Sorry for the rant.
Bitcoin is actually an account system
An account with whom? ECash is literally an authentication token to a server (mint), your analogy sucks
nobody ever talked about "private bitcoin transactions"
That's literally what all the spooks and scammers are selling it as, but even for people that acknowledge its just about obfuscating accounts from the custodian that doesn't hold up for a number of reasons I outlined elsewhere in this thread
does not know the person that requested that
Yea and how is that any different than any other non-KYC key? You're still trusting the mint to not use key-tweaking and second stage hueristics, you also are implying a large anon-set such as an institution like the US Treasury, which is all this trash is good for
Fiat shitcoiners of the banking system would use fedimint or cashu as their ecash protocols for custodians the world would be in a much better place
No it wouldn't. There are valid cases for free-banking or state banking as opposed to central banking, but ECash doesn't add any particular benefit to those models. It's just LARP tech
Custody should be local, as in family level, not institutional.
Wasabi uses blinded signatures
Another centralized trash privacy LARP, pitty the fool who used that or Samourai or that thinking they were being private. You get the honeypot you deserve.
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A gift card is not an "account", thus ecash is not an account. Analogy may be a bit too squeezed but that's the point.
The fact that
custody should be local, as in family level, not institutional.
is just a dream of yours, even though I agree with it. People just trust institutions, people just trust big custodians. That's the reality.
We need to procede the innovation for non custodial tools, but understand that people will always ALSO use custodians. Again, we look at the world from our naive perspective...who is actually going to open an LN node and mess with liquidity and onchain fees and balancing? Very few. The others will use "self-custodial-trust-minimized" LN wallets, which means that they'll be trapped into the need of buying services from an LSP.
LSPs will be institutionalized. I don't like it, but that's the reality. LSPs are just companies that run a liquidity-provider business for sats, regulators are going to catch them...at least the big ones and anyone that will became big enough. If using Wasabi was a foolish error from LARPers because you consider it an honeypot, what do you thing will be the fate of LSPs? They have big targets on their backs.
All this rant is to say that our push for decentralization is a need that we have as a community to make bitcoin actually usable without breaking it's properties, but the majority of people will not accept some tradeoffs that we are willing to accept. If they want to use custodians that's their business and their money, but if we have a tool to make privacy for custodians slightly better, why shouldn't we?
Yea and how is that any different than any other non-KYC key? You're still trusting the mint to not use key-tweaking and second stage hueristics, you also are implying a large anon-set such as an institution like the US Treasury, which is all this trash is good for
These issues are still better than plain text transaction logs of users, that are what custodians can see as of now.
There are valid cases for free-banking or state banking as opposed to central banking, but ECash doesn't add any particular benefit to those models.
Free banking is basically having reserves of amount X and giving out banknotes/promises for the X amount. What's the difference between this system and, say, an ecash mint? In the past examples of free banking (all dating back decades ago) there were banknotes, now we don't have banknotes anymore. How are you going to substitute banknotes in the digital realm? I guess that ecash adds some particular benefits to that ancient cash-based model.
Yes. The best thing out there is Bitcoin and self custody. How is the public dealing with it? Leaving coins in centralized platforms. What can we do? Build better tools for self custody and, in the meantime, make the fools using custodians a bit more private (if a custodian is ever going to using it, btw).
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A gift card is not an "account"
Yes it is
People just trust institutions
That doesnt justify affinity scamming ECash with Bitcoin, it doesnt even make better custodians... that narrative is just a scam
mess with liquidity and onchain fees and balancing
That's already automated even in shitwallet like mobile apps, also doesn't need to be everyone... a custodian of 100 or so extended family members is absolutely achievable
LSPs will be institutionalized
Wrong again, bootstrap peers will displace LSP's using nostr as a social graph and marketplace
Also your projection has nothing to do with whether or not ECash is a scam. Cope harder
still better than plain text transaction logs of users
In your imagination, but they are effectively the exact same. The cryptographic theater doesn't change the fact a custodian has countless ways, both known and unknown, to gain insights
By portraying ECash as better, you're lying yourself right into another trap... ECash is the real rat poison
What's the difference between this system and, say, an ecash mint?
An ECash mint can be used in free banking, that does not mean it's inherently free banking
banknotes
ECash is exactly like banknotes, that's the scam... it'll be used by the US Treasury and capture Bitcoin just like the central banks used notes to capture Gold
Centralization will always trend this way, hense decentralization is paramount above all else.. and that ain't aligned with ECash
What can we do? Build better tools for self custody
Yea, not ECash
ECASH IS LESS PRIVATE NOT MORE
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