4856 sats \ 19 comments \ @Scoresby 1 Mar mostly_harmless

Every battle needs violence

I have two sons. Yesterday, they were playing with these little plastic armymen they have. The older one was very intent on setting up a large battle and had spread the armymen all over the floor and furniture. The younger one wanted a more active scene, and was knocking a good deal of them over in his enthusiasm. The older one was clearly getting frustrated (I wasn't watching but definitely noticed an increase in the volume of his protestations).

And then SMACK!

This is not the first time the older one has assaulted his younger brother. His temper, and its parallel-bus connection to physical action, is something we've been working on. He's one of those kids for whom physical action comes naturally. He loves to wrestle and he goes about his day engaged in one imaginary battle after the other (usually with superpowers and sound effects).

The younger brother was pretty darn aggrieved. Howling, tears all down his face, words mushed with wails. I do think his tears were honest (and he had a pretty good welt where the other one hit him), but he is our youngest and has really been leaning-in to his identity as the baby of the family. I'd say more than 90% of the complaints that make it to my (metaphorical) suggestion box are from him.

What to do?

I try to maintain a firm prohibition on hitting/punching/kicking. So, clearly some sort of consequence for the older brother is required. But, on the other hand, the younger one was being a little shit, so clearly the consequence needs to be tempered by the provocation. However, there is the history of the older child whacking his brother and the fact that we have discussed how this is not okay, so clearly his was the greater transgression. Yet, the younger sibling has refined his the use of his parents as a defense mechanism, and so I can clearly not take his accusations at face value. But the older sibling is bigger and older, and clearly should know better than to lose his temper. The younger one was given a number of warnings to stop knocking of the army men and chose to continue, so clearly some amount of blame does lie at his door. If you find this dizzying, what till I get going!

Justice doesn't help my boys

Where was I? Oh yes, this is when it hit me: the entire exercise is a waste. Justice won't help here. Certainly for the older boy, the purpose of any discipline is to help him learn how to control himself. It's about teaching him that he can't hit other people (at least not without a better cause).

In the case of the younger brother, it's less clear. He was hurt. What will he take away from the situation if he feels the wrong is not redressed? In the moment, he needed a hug and some reassurance that he wasn't going to die from being smacked by his brother.

If I'm honest, part of how I parent is shielding my kids from the harshest consequences of their actions, giving them the chance to learn how to be good people through trial and error. The hardest part of parenting is figuring out which consequences to let your children bear.

(The above statement is pretty controversial--at least to my ears. Consequences are good. Shouldn't we always experience the consequences of our actions?)

What do you think? Should there be justice for my boys?

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637 sats \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury 1 Mar

Dang, what a thought-provoking post.

If I'm honest, part of how I parent is shielding my kids from the harshest consequences of their actions, giving them the chance to learn how to be good people through trial and error. The hardest part of parenting is figuring out which consequences to let your children bear.

If you didn't know it, you may be interested to learn that there's a whole scholarship of play, which of course means that someplace they have to define what play actually entails. One thing that's pretty consistently in there is that play is a way of being that allows you to try things out. To explore, to do shit, and to be shielded to some extent from the consequences of action, so that you can learn without being destroyed.

It is illustrative, I think, to examine what happens when people -- not just kids -- are deficient in play. They become ... twisted, stunted. Sometimes sociopathic. Turns out that play really, really, really matters. That so many adults have forgotten how to play is both evident, from looking around, and sobering, given these facts.

Anyway, I don't know when and to what degree your kids should soak in the consequences of their actions, but I know they're lucky to have a dad who wrestles with the question.

302 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 1 Mar

so you can learn without being destroyed.

This is exactly it, but there is a whole world in that phrase. I can let them fall down the stairs and they will probably be better at going up and down stairs in the future--more self sufficient. But if they knock a tooth out or get a concussion, that ain't too good. It's all about figuring out what not being destroyed is.

I'm not familiar with the literature, but do you know of any books/articles that tackle the question?

222 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 1 Mar

My entre into this space is through neuroscience (animal play, what it's for, how it works) for which the work of Jaak Panksepp is canonical. In humans, I've read some of Peter Gray's work -- here's a TED talk that looks like a reasonable orientation.

You know, this is a reach, but one of the most life-changing books I've ever read is on improv. Strikes me that it could be a really good thing for where you are in your life, for yourself and your kids. It's a serious read, FYI, but I don't use the phrase 'life-changing' lightly.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 1 Mar

Someone I know recommends Improvise.

78 sats \ 3 replies \ @_vnprc 1 Mar

Punish the older boy appropriately and swiftly. You need to drive home the point that starting a fight will always result in punishment. This behavior is socially unacceptable and if you can't impress this upon him in the safe and virtuous home environment he will learn the lesson in the real world with real world consequences.

As for the younger kid, I think the welt on his face is probably consequence enough. If he continues to advocate for more 'justice' than this, do not bend. Remind him of what a little shit he was being and how every act has consequences. Make sure his brother is within earshot so that he knows he was dealt with fairly.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 1 Mar

Strong advice. I do believe in clear, quick consequences. Especially with young kids.

My uncertainty enters in that the younger boy certainly did his best to provoke his brother. And there is some history of this pattern.

Also: the boys' idea of "fair" is not the same. I think this is what I'm trying to get at. Kids care about fairness a lot, but they also have kinda horrible instincts for what it is.

76 sats \ 0 replies \ @_vnprc 1 Mar

If it is a clear pattern of provoking his older brother then additional punishment may be warranted. Your job (and it's not an easy one) is to provide clear, fair, and swift arbitration. You provide the moral structure that will shape your kids' behavior and morality throughout their lives. I think you're doing a good job based on the fact that you cared enough to ask for advice. Keep it up! You're a good parent.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @nout 1 Mar

Kids seems to pick one fairness dimension only... e.g. the time spent with the kid, the number of times spent with the kid, the number of words, the number of hugs, the number of gifts, the size of the gift, the number of slices... "you are doing more with my brother than me!!!"

51 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 1 Mar

I see the infraction as mostly being the breaking of a house rule against hitting and I would try to make it clear that he's being punished for that, even if his younger brother was acting poorly. I don't think the provocation needs to weigh very heavily.

With the younger one, I think getting hit was probably punishment enough. However, I would emphasize that if you act like a jerk you might get hit (not that it's right or fair or just or anything, just that it might happen), rather than emphasizing that his brother was wrong to react that way.

In short, you don't have to take sides. They can both be in the wrong.

34 sats \ 1 reply \ @Signal312 1 Mar

You've gotten a lot of great points here already. I'm going to recommend a book that can really help with harmony in the home - or at least, make things less stressful.

That book is 1-2-3 Magic by Thomas Phelan. Outstanding, short, very direct and clear read. Best parenting book I ever read. It deals with situations like this very well.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 1 Mar

Thank you! I'll check it out. We could use a little harmony...

34 sats \ 2 replies \ @gd 1 Mar

Disclaimer: I am not a parent, so I certainly don't have the experience to advise on child rearing, or how to implement this best as a parent.

I think what you're describing here makes total sense, in fact— I'd go further and say that you've stumbled on to something that most people in life will pretend is not the truth. The exercise in "punishment" is a waste.

That being said your question is about Justice, and I firmly believe exercising Justice is a waste. Justice is a virtue— it comes down to understanding what Justice is itself.

At the end of last year, I done a bunch of reading on the virtue of Justice for similar reasons you describe above— my understanding of Justice was not virtuous at all and I couldn't see how it could do any good.

Punish the wrong-doer, make the victim whole again.

My philosophical reading lead me to now have a completely different understanding of what Justice is and it stems from one single premise:

Something that does harm to another cannot be just, no matter the reasoning behind it.

That kind of blew my mind, it's totally different from what I had ever picked up from those around me in the past. It's based on the premise of "he who does wrong is the ultimate victim of his action".

So the virtuous exercise of Justice is to help the wrong-doer from wronging himself and helping him respect himself. The other virtues (Wisdom, Temperance, Courage) can really help with this.

That's my 2 sats. Figuring out how to implement that? That sounds like a job for a loving parent :D

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @gd 1 Mar

and I firmly believe exercising Justice is a waste

LOL— this was supposed to say "isn't a waste"

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 1 Mar

he who does wrong is the ultimate victim of his action.

I lived with a priest once who said something like this. He even went so far as to omit the line in the Nicene creed that says "to judge the living and the dead." His idea being that wrongdoing already carries with it its just punishment.

On the other hand, there's an old thing written by a guy named Boethius where he makes the case that stopping a person from doing wrong is good for them, so even violence can be justified in such efforts. I may be screwing up what he said--it's been a while since I read it. But my takeaway was that he justified a whole lot of harm with this construction.

Probably, good life is somewhere in between. My experience of parenting so far has been that kids want attention more than anything else and acting out can most often be fixed by focusing on them for a little while.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @erict875 1 Mar

I'm wondering if hitting is a natural stress response, or something children learn either because they were victim of such abuse, or from witnessing it being perpetrated on someone else?

I am for children understanding boundaries, what is acceptable, what is not, and consequences, but absolutely no spanking, and ideally no shouting, though...

More important than punishment, would be to go to the source and try to understand why they behaved the way they did. Only then can you be effective at preventing it from occurring again

34 sats \ 3 replies \ @026180d3a3 1 Mar

The old if either of you do X you both get the same punishment might be an interesting lesson.