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0 sats \ 8 replies \ @windward 15 Jan 2024 \ parent \ on: On Lincoln history
Every single one of your suggestions that Lincoln 'could have done' are things he actually did do, and it didn't work because the Confederates wanted otherwise.
If you believe that conquest was unnecessary then the Confederates should have accepted the negotiations, given up the institution of slavery,or won the war.
They did none of these things and fired first during negotiations.
My understanding is that Lincoln's primary goal of the war was to preserve the union. If there was an offer of independence for the CSA, then I was unaware of that. Is that what you're asserting?
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my understanding is that Lincoln's primary goal of the war was to preserve the union
this is in reference towards whether Lincoln would have allowed for slavery to occur if the Confederates didn't open fire. And he would have - nearly everything he offered the Confederates were given to slave holding states in the Union.
Confederates simply did not care.
Again, they were in active negotiations for months when the Confederates opened fire. They were even in negotiations up until the blockade. The attack was done at the time it was primarily to convince other states to join with the Confederate cause and end negotiations.
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As you said earlier, and I didn't dispute, secession was already going to happen. My point is that Lincoln chose to go to war over it. That's what I am claiming was both unjust and unnecessary.
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Lincoln chose to go to war over it
This ignores the fact that the Confederates engaged in hostilities first and during negotiations for peace. If they didn't want war, they shouldn't have started shooting.
That's what I am claiming was both unjust and unnecessary.
What's unjust and unnecessary is building an entire society around the enslavement of human beings and being upset you can't make others enforce that ruleset on your behalf - this is why Confederates say they prepared for conflict and opened fire.
Pretending that this isn't the case, that if Lincoln just didn't retaliate that there would be no conflict simply ignores the publicly made statements and historical documents of that time period. It's simply not based in objective reality.
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What's unjust and unnecessary is building an entire society around the enslavement of human beings and being upset you can't make others enforce that ruleset on your behalf
I'm not arguing against this, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
If you want to say people don't have a right to secede from their current rulers, that's fine. We can just stop talking then. However, you seem to be dodging that the war was about preventing secession to Lincoln. Since he was explicit about being willing to fight to preserve the union, why wouldn't the seceding states prepare for conflict?
Unless I missed it, you never answered my question about whether Lincoln was offering to acknowledge the independence of the states that initially seceded. My understanding is that he was not willing to do so.
If peaceful independence was rejected by the south it would change my perception of events.
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Since he was explicit about being willing to fight to preserve the union, why wouldn't the seceding states prepare for conflict?
The statement "fighting to preserve the union" is referring his willingness to have offered the Confederates anything to stay, except the expansion of slavery.
The Confederate belief was that he would abolish slavery and they should secede before he had the opportunity to do so.
Unless I missed it, you never answered my question about whether Lincoln was offering to acknowledge the independence of the states that initially seceded
This is a question that cannot be answered because the Confederates shot first while negotiating the surrender of property they asked for, thereby ending any possibility of Lincoln acknowledging them as independent. How can they reasonably negotiate in good faith when being shot at after offering what they wanted?
The bombardment was done by the Confederates with the intent of ending peaceful discussion.
If peaceful independence was rejected by the south
Yes.
They were offered every concession you have suggested in previous posts over decades before Lincoln's election and during the civil war, and refused concessions/shot at troops in response during negotiations.