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I have been looking around different subreddits and have seen different people talking about how fees are too high. I know that because I am on subreddits that oppose Bitcoin (r/btc), this would be the case. However, when I see people talk about the lightning network as a fix, they all call it a failure because of the fees you have to pay to send from on-chain to off chain. What're everyone's thoughts on this?
1035 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 5 Jan
In general people over-generalize. It gets very old. Calling LN a failure is an example. It has issues. It may not be the solution to scaling bitcoin to mass adoption. Only time will tell but it is a step on the road and is working for many bitcoiners today.
Here's some advice. If you are gonna call something a failure you first need to consider what were its stated goals. Has it failed to meet them? If so, is there anything to be learned from it? If both are no then yeah, its a failure. That however is rare.
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Lightning is infinitely reusable chain transactions, nothing more or less when you boil it down. People that don't understand Bitcoin, or don't want to use the chain at all, get mad when it doesn't behave more like an SQL database than the chain.
NGU is Bitcoin's core value proposition, payments are a tougher sell since most of the world has largely satisfactory payment rails.
Information warfare is the biggest factor. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested into affinity scams like Fedimints and Liquid, that money buys opinions more than it buys developers.
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1221 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 9 Jan
Totally agree with this post and your other 2 tweets:
The todays problems with BTC and LN are not the fees, but the stupid force closes of channels. If we find a way to limit to minimum reasons a force closing channel, LN will work just fine. Opening channels in high fee environment is NOT the problem, the force closing channels is the problem. If I have the certainty that a channel will not get force closed in the next year, I could easily manage my batch channels opening in a better way and cheaper. But if I open today a 20M sats channel and in few months get force closed because some stupid shity node in the routing path got stucked HTLCs (not being my fault), that hurts a lot and disrupt massively the network.
In theory you do not have to close a channel if it just work fine and route payments. You close it ONLY in emergency cases and even then first you try to have a cooperative closure.
But yeah, people nowadays just come up with stupid ideas to "fix Bitcoin" and moving away from Bitcoin values. I am tired of all this bullshit proposals.
My big gripe with the LN is the security. From my understanding, it is less secure than on-chain
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Then your understanding is wrong, see again re: information warfare.
Hot wallets are obviously less secure than cold wallets by nature of their online-ness, this is not Lightning specific and Lightning is still ultimately the chain.
The alternative offering is "not bitcoin", sad to see so many taking the bait.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 5 Jan
From my understanding, it is less secure than on-chain
Then your understanding is wrong, see again re: information warfare.
You're saying LN is not less secure than on chain?
Hot wallets are obviously less secure than cold wallets by nature of their online-ness, this is not Lightning specific and Lightning is still ultimately the chain.
LN nodes are hot wallets though, no?
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You're saying LN is not less secure than on chain?
Not inherently, because it's still the chain.
Surface area of software is a factor obviously, so one saying LN is less secure than Core would also have to admit that Electrum is less secure than Core.
It's hair splitting.
LN nodes are hot wallets, no?
Typically, but not necessarily. Payment channels over dark networks or private lines might become more common over time. I understand a few large players to do this already, as its better opsec than broadcasting settlements. Here LN offers more security.
A hot Bitcoin Core wallet ultimately shares the same risks as a hot LN wallet, so to call LN less secure is disingenuous.
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A hot Bitcoin Core wallet ultimately shares the same risks as a hot LN wallet, so to call LN less secure is disingenuous.
Mhh, I think I see where you're coming from now. How people use LN currently might be less secure (custodial, hot wallets etc.) but as you explained, that doesn't necessarily mean that LN itself is less secure.
It's just a multisig with timeouts onchain.
Did I summarize your point of view correctly?
Can you elaborate on this though?
Payment channels over dark networks or private lines might become more common over time
With private lines, you mean LN nodes that pay or route through each other inside a VPN? What is a "dark network"?
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Did I summarize your point of view correctly?
Yea I think fairly, i'd just also point out that the way most people use the chain currently is at parity... mostly custodial or hot.
Dark Network
Yea basically a VPN between partners and other opco's. I worked on this stuff in the energy sector, dark networks power basically everything and I think the same will be true for the majority of Bitcoin transactions.
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do you self host your LN wallet? If not, isn't centralization a risk?
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Of course, and I share it with friends and family who don't want the added friction for their spending amounts.
Centralization relative to what? The optionality exists to self-host, it is a "network" afterall, so no I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Any time someone gripes about Lightning they're usually shilling something else.
Because Lightning is Bitcoin, the something else is invariably "not bitcoin", such as a federated shitcoin.
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Ultimately lightning will probably become the glue between different ways of “sharing” UTXOs, if all these different options can speak lightning they become interoperable allowing for instance payments with minimal on-chain fees. Just like the base layer isn’t for coffee payments, eventually neither will lightning. The fees associated with opening and closing channels becomes economically when the amount of transaction across those channels goes up a ton. If these channels are connecting lots of “shared” UTXOs solutions, they make a lot of sense. Right now it’s hard to see this as we’re still in the process of building out and deciding the best way to do “shared” UTXOs, cheapest way is just have an sql db and be a custodian (but is of course not ideal for all the reasons). fedimint is a step in the right direction which doesn’t require a base layer chain and gives added privacy and reduces rug pull risk vs having a single custodian, but there are still issues with that solution. There are other options in the pipeline that might be possible on the base layer, however, any changes to the base layer take time (which is a good thing). At the end of the day, the question becomes “are the fees I’m paying for opening + closing a channel worth the economic benefits I get from having it” which is a pretty reasonable incentive. Early days, lightning is still a child, at ~5 years old, compared to many of the tools we use in tech today.
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1205 sats \ 7 replies \ @TNStacker 5 Jan
F.U.D.
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yeah but how do you feel about the on-chain to LN fees? do you think theyre too high?
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On-chain to LN or on-chain to fiat is still on-chain. The point of lightning is to avoid the chain amap.
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yeah but LN is so much less secure than on-chain self-custody.
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What are your security concerns about LN? Your node being offline long enough to suffer an attack is a far fetched scenario. Everything is a tradeoff. For small transfers on chain you are overpaying for security.
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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Caleb 6 Jan
I’m not worried about my node being offline too much. There’s watchtower. I’m worried about having a lot of Bitcoin on a hot wallet running experimental software. Cold storage is much much less risky.
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At times. So, then you wait. However, if you act appropriately when they are low (open channels, coinjoin, etc.), the waiting don't take nothing but patience. Lower time preference training. 🤣
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Set up an alert and snag the fees when they are low.
Unless it is while you are asleep. :)
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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 5 Jan
In all aspects of life these impatient & limited attention days everything is a failure unless its perfect for everyone everywhere instantaneously. Millions of people regularly use lightning successfully, but its certainly not perfect. Nothing is perfect. BTC onchain isn't perfect. LN and BTC are just better than fiat, but have limits and tradeoffs. No one said they were perfect. Go back and read the LN white paper. Most issues people are raging about today were in the original white paper years ago. Let's try to be realistic and celebrate incremental improvements by hardworking companies and devs. The fiat system is the result of centuries of work by countless people and it still sucks. By those standards we are just getting started.
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Probably because of the low or static volume on Bitcoin on Lightning
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Segwit was pitched as a partial block size increase that would allow LN. It was widely accepted as a response to high fees in 2017. LN was going to enable the planet to use BTC at scale, no more high fees onchain. It was the ultimate scaling solution.
Turns out segwit would become a major CAUSE of high fees in 2023 (inscriptions). LN fees have risen in response to chain fees. Its clear that still not everyone on the planet can have a UTXO, LN didn't solve that. As LN tooling was built out, its clear that noncustodial LN is really hard if you're not already a systems admin. This led to many LN wallets being custodial.
The LN white paper makes it clear that the "FULL" version of LN will not be possible until Covenants. So, the LN we know and love is still just beta/incomplete pending yet another soft fork. Many in the "ossify now" crowd view LN as an excuse to keep forking BTC and introduce more unintended "attacks" to the base layer, just so everyone can use a custodian or federation for payments.
The Bitcoin white paper declares BTC as peer to peer, no middlemen, no financial institutions. LN is literally built for routing thru middlemen and hub and spoke "mega banks" issuing most of the liquidity. So many see the LN as anti bitcoin.
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LN was going to enable the planet to use BTC at scale, no more high fees onchain.
According to absolutely no one, including the authors themselves, who went to great lengths to explain to people both in the paper and in follow up talks, that it doesn't scale to the whole world. (there isn't enough block space for every one to have a channel of their own).
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This is the conversation I want to have! You hit a lot of the topics that I've been craving more discussion about because I'm struggling with a lot of the long term implications of some of these things.

Side note:
The only thing you said that I want to push back on is "noncustodial LN is really hard if you're not already a sys admin."
Node solutions from Start9 and Umbrel with apps like Thunderhub and Ride The Lightning are making it quite easy to run a LN node. Sure, it's a half day project to follow along with BTC Sessions on YouTube and set up your node.... and another half day to learn the basics of channel liquidity, etc. But that's it. It's not hard.
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You’re right it’s getting easier but channel management is still hard and needs a lot more automation. There’s rebalancing, adjusting fees, running scripts and tools for picking new partners, dealing with closes and other odd errors, tweaking configs to take advantage of new options and best practices. Compare it to a credit card and a bank account.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ca 5 Jan
All the foundational/major critiques are contained here:
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Lightning really saved my ass when I needed to make a few bucks quickly and even if some other scaling solution is ultimately adopted I will probably look at this time fondly like the old timers and usenet
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 5 Jan
Let's say you open a channel for an extremely high fee if $1000. If you use it once or twice its expensive. But if you use it10k times it is not.
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Non-custodial Lightning is too complicated to set up, run and maintain, for most "normal" (non-developer / non-sysadmin) people.
As I type this, I am resending a Lightning Payment (which has "Queued" for the past 5 minutes) after the first attempt failed.
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The issue of high transaction fees on the main chain is a concern, but there is not much that can be done. Bitcoin is for everyone, for good and for bad. The only problem I see with the Lightning Network is the issue of opening/closing channels. I think it is a barrier to adoption, but I also don't know of any better solution, if there is one.
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The world is used to custodial solutions - for everything, especially financial. I expect Alby and Wallet of Satoshi types to be around. Regulators will have a say as "the enemy gets a vote."
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Yes. Custodial solutions give a big boost to the LN, but they are not ideal.

Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins

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so then if there isn't one, are they right?
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I don't think it's a matter of being wrong or right. I believe that doing your best is always a good thing, but it doesn't mean it's the best thing.
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