1126 sats \ 7 replies \ @elvismercury OP 2 Dec 2023 \ parent \ on: Btc privacy tradeoffs, overt and covert bitcoin
Fungibility seems to me to technologically determined -- if a money cannot be differentiated from its other units, then it's fungible. If it can be differentiated, then it will be, because people have all kinds of feelings on the issue of where it's been spent, and by who.
In other words, because it's technically possible for people / groups to have opinions about different UTXOs, they will have those opinions, and nothing can prevent them from having them.
Which would suggest that the best we can hope for is some kind of overwhelming cultural pressure to keep that inevitability in check, kind of like norms can racism or sexism socially inadmissible in the broader society, but obviously those things still happen.
Thoughts?
What you wrote is accurate, but then we must accept that bitcoin is inferior to gold, and even paper bank notes, when it comes to fungibility. Perhaps the only recourse is to use mixers, and, to quote a famous philosopher named @DarthCoin, "fuck the guvs."
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Mixers, and then hope the culture makes mixing so prevalent that preferences for 'clean' coins with good pedigrees becomes implausible; and that the ability of state actors to oppress based on that pedigree becomes minimal.
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sir, did you finish reading ALL my guides?
Please try to pay this LN invoice and tell me if you can find the destination...
lnbc10u1pjkhyzkpp54xg0hgtp24h6mc0ce0llu3mxl57p86564pglk5vk86x0v3gqqt2qdqqcqzrcxqr8qlsp56qlgqxxfp5e2g2c5q2qdf24n09np4unfrnlmqkmv5us74vj3q7sq9qyyssq2r9zd7kda6g8cmpu6lh0hte9mentj0v7mcvy6glkngygdfe600qxkqf2f5ffumvvdatk5wzgmw6j49z6ee62hfkk8dpwggew7x6kntqpuykn79
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^ this. Lightning is the most effective mixer/anonymous layer on Bitcoin. When you need anonymity, it’s there, and it works pretty damn well these days. Sure, there are issues with edges knowing their points on the route, but it’s good enough to mitigate anything but a very expensive to concoct NSA surveillance node network (that would be frequently bypassed anyway).
Besides, it’s much easier for a government to just demand records from merchants and get shipping info to hunt you down in meatspace than to trace lightning. We’ve reached the point of evolution where the privacy failure exists outside the bitcoin payment ecosystem.
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I tried, it expired :)
But point taken. I need to learn more about this aspect of LN. Well, I need to learn about all of it, but this in particular.
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LOL after 4 h ?! hahaha, I never let my LN invoices to be valid after 1h.
Read more here https://docs.zeusln.app/lsp/wrapped-invoices/
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Dude with wrapped invoices you are involving a LSP. That is a third party. Similar privacy as a banking app.
The whole point is that ideally no one else should know except the sender and receiver.
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