multisig=🤡 singlesig=🍼 shamir secrets=🪤 seedXOR=👑 \ stacker news ~bitcoin

multisig=🤡 singlesig=🍼 shamir secrets=🪤 seedXOR=👑

3777 sats \ 19 comments \ @tenderscore 11 Sep 2023 bitcoin

Dafuq doesn't seedXOR get a whole lot more ❤️ anyone? Not much talk of it here on Stacker?

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SeedXOR should be the standard method of individual custody you donkeys.

SeedXOR is far lighter and less complicated than multistupid or Shamir Show-offs. Only slightly heavier than singlesig, but with incredible optionality, decoying, plausible deniability...I got no clue why the pie-chart of self custody discussions look like this:

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/RpU25pmstFGZudO1VXgXWGtGukBq7ySjrwwLM-dZXRk/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFnZS5ub3N0ci5idWlsZC9lNWU3MWJjMDk3OTA2NzUxZjRiY2I1YmQ4MmM4NmIzYTI4YzQwZjYwYWNhMDU5YmMzYjUxMjhkNjFlMDI3NTA0LmpwZw

My bet is multi-stupid fills out like 80% of the pie because of hybridized self-custody and the growth of these shady companies all trending towards looking like Liberty Safe did recently:

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/-SXyALK1w2XEkukoIk19WfIt3uqa4q1zh4U_gIP78oA/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFnZS5ub3N0ci5idWlsZC84NzFmNzkyZWY2ZTgyZjcyZDFkY2NhNGRiYjQ4OTIxOWU2ZTAwMmQxZmMzNDI1NWYyMTNiMTliMjgxMDYxZGY4LmpwZw

Stop being donkeys and embrace SeedXOR!

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/FL8tv59bSj3fDxQLCMm7FRFjsryYsMKQTTWerpQ3xNg/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFnZS5ub3N0ci5idWlsZC9iZDQ4ZjFiMmQ0MDRkYjg1MTZhZWMxNzNhMzYyYjA0ZjI3NzQwY2I5Nzg5ODkzZDJjODU1ZDg3YTVhNmY1YmVmLmdpZg

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817 sats \ 0 replies \ @BTC__Smile 11 Sep 2023

It's clear you're passionate about SeedXOR as a method for individual custody in the Bitcoin space, and you raise some valid points about its advantages compared to other methods like multisig and Shamir secrets, as well as its potential for optionality, decoying, and plausible deniability; it's essential for the crypto community to explore and adopt various approaches that best align with their security and privacy needs, and I appreciate your enthusiasm for advocating for SeedXOR as a valuable option in the self-custody discussions. 🚀🪙🔐 #BitcoinSecurity #SeedXOR

500 sats \ 0 replies \ @rijndael 11 Sep 2023

If you do multisig, you can bring a psbt to each of your signers and never have to have all the keys on the same machine at once.

SeedXOR is a way to split the backup of a singlesig.

46 sats \ 6 replies \ @legxxi 11 Sep 2023

Care to explain its benefits and how does it work? I know we can search for it, but since you are bringing the subject up..

121 sats \ 5 replies \ @SpaceHodler 11 Sep 2023

You generate two seeds A and B and xor them. You store the seeds A and B securely (e.g. on steel plates) and use A xor B as your wallet.

Alternatively if you don't want to move your coins from your existing wallet with seed A, you can generate a new seed B, engrave on plates seeds B and A xor B, and destroy the plates with A. Then by xorring B with A xor B you can recover A.

The effect is similar to 2-of-2 multisig.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 11 Sep 2023

But no one knows it uses seed xor. So you can, for example, use seed A as a decoy wallet. If someone finds it, they won't know your main stack is in A xor B.

The xorred wallet still only has 256 bits of entropy though, unlike in multisig which adds entropy.

25 sats \ 3 replies \ @Zepasta 11 Sep 2023

deleted by author

151 sats \ 2 replies \ @SpaceHodler 11 Sep 2023

Which part didn't you get?

Imagine you have a 24 word seed. You split it into 2 halves, 12 words each, and store each half separately, which makes it more secure, because if someone finds one, they won't be able to access your wallet. Both halves are needed to reconstruct the 24 word seed and access your wallet.

With seed XOR, however, instead of splitting it into halves, you split it into pieces that are still 24 words each (and not 12), but there is 50% redundancy in them.

The XOR table is: 0 xor 0 = 0 0 xor 1 = 1 1 xor 0 = 1 1 xor 1 = 0

So two bits get reduced to one.

You could as well pad 12 word halves with random seed words to get 24 words, but combining them wouldn't be commutative.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @mallardshead 11 Sep 2023

Yes good explainer Space. OP was right as well about the optionality, decoying, and plausible deniability. I think it allows for this better than any other solution. I don't know, I personally think it's very underrated, because of what you can start building beneath the original seed and it's 2+ XOR, which is perhaps unexplored. But sXOR it's also relatively new; 2021 or so, and the only hardware wallet that supports XOR computing of the original seed is Coldcard. We need more.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 11 Sep 2023

I was thinking of doing it myself and wrote a Python script that XORs two seed phrases, but left it at that for the time being. It would have to be run on a machine that's not connected to the internet and an OS booted from a USB stick, like Tails, to avoid malware. Hardware solutions are surely preferable.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @TSW 11 Sep 2023

I considered each of them, and my personal preferences are: multisig, Shamir, SeedXOR, singlesig.

There is no single best solution, as people have different needs. Why I choose multisig:

Protection against loss of one or more keys
Inheritance planning
Best products / UX as of now

It seems the trade-off is between convenience and security.

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @dtonon 11 Sep 2023

https://seedxor.com/

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @bitdern 11 Sep 2023

It took me a bit to understand what exactly XOR was, but it's pretty cool! I think that what's inhibiting adoption currently is lack of (((accessible))) education/content around its uses. I am thinking on how best to frame it rn!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mallardshead 11 Sep 2023

SEED XOR kinda borrows a little from single, multi, and Shamir. With a Coldcard it's quite stupid simple to use, and I think you're right, the lack of education and hardware support is the issue. There's no reason only a couple quality YouTube videos exist on it, and why only one hardware wallet supports it. Is it licensed or something?

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @Zepasta 11 Sep 2023

What's SeedXOR, never heard of it

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 11 Sep 2023

I've whipped up a JS seed XOR calculator that runs in the browser. Use at your own risk! https://github.com/SpaceHodler/SeedXOR

https://imgprxy.stacker.news/v1DNsw0QdK8TsgcP_0Z2nMx6I9lcBPITZPnQSzNzFyI/rs:fit:600:500:0/g:no/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFnZS5ub3N0ci5idWlsZC81MjkyMzNkZjIwZGNkMDBkN2EwMDcwMzVmMDIwNWNiMzAwOWJlYjlhYzlkM2RjZTM0ZTI3ODQ2NTFjZGFlMGEzLmpwZw

25 sats \ 1 reply \ @SovranSystems 11 Sep 2023

Thanks for this! It is only compatible with coldcard?

6 sats \ 0 replies \ @mallardshead 11 Sep 2023

So far yes. Still somewhat new.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiracDelta 11 Sep 2023

Don't forget about one time pads. https://github.com/brndnmtthws/seed-otp

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @ursuscamp 11 Sep 2023

It's very cool, but it feels like a half measure between script multisig and Schnorr MPC. Maybe if Schnorr multisig wasn't so close to being ready for every day usage, it would gain more traction.