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296 sats \ 12 replies \ @llamabyte 29 Jul 2023 \ on: Let's discuss El Salvador's Volcano 🌋Tokens. Here's ABSOLUTELY everything: bitcoin
seriously ? has everyone forgotten the point of crypto ?
I'm with you. That's what the Coldcard is for. Some would argue these are less crypto and more a modern security, and like all securities a person (or business) must be registered to buy/sell them.
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There are tons of securities, shitcoins and genuine projects deployed without KYC.
Let's be a little clearer about what we mean, what this implies and why it's a bad or good idea.
When you say "Modern security" you mean contemporary, temporal as in time and not "the latest in technical abilty" or "the most up to date" because the latest in tech does not need KYC for any practical reason.
What this project is, is an investment in El Salvador. A state, a government with a central bank and global financial regulations alignment NOT an investment in Bitcoin.
The benefits are is that they are unlikely to just run away; they have a mechanism for refunds, essentialy they are more trustworthy the some random project.
When the world switches to controlling CBDC's, austerity and oppresive banking and fiat rules everyone is predicting will send BTC to 100k or 1 million. You have to trust ES to not abuse your information and registration with them, you have to trust ES not to behave like every other fiat seignorage AFTER Bukele.
Overall it's like Embracing all the innovations of Bitcoin, Expanding them into legacy fiat thinking and then having a non-zero risk of it extinguished in the span of time. Which is the enemies go to tactic for technology.
Volcano energy is hard,volcano energy in ES is untested unlike in Iceland fo example. We don't know the downstream affects that might affect the project.
I was wondeing how they would role this out and it seems great, especially for insiders on this first run. I could see a market for these bonds and hopefully some of them will be KYC free.
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Not registered ones. Comparing this offering to no KYC anything on ETH is laughable.
No one ever thinks about the other side of securities laws. The fact that you are investing in an enterprise Makes KYC optional because if that company is crappy and they go bankrupt the courts use KYC to chop up and assets the company had to pay out its creditors. KYC for bitcoin is ridiculous but as an investment requirement let bitcoiners decide if they wish KYC to invest in an enterprise.
While I am all for the protection of privacy but we still need a way to identify criminals and bring them to justice. Even without governments a market for crime fighting will exist it would only take time before someone developed tools to solve crimes.
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What you propose is even more ridiculous in the modern age, on the website you are on, with secure money flying around the place through zaps, using pseudonymous names. It's a living contradiction, or cognitive dissonance.
Register the company with the state, fine. I get it. Where real assets and real property exist in physical reality, the state or some other mafia will be there. An argument can be made they protect us from other less desirable mafias. Let the company itself register with the state, and carry out the insurance policy in the case of bankruptcy that you mention.
But those post bankruptcy assets can be divided up and distributed TO THE PSEUDONYMOUS accounts. The amount these bitcoin addresses invested, is available to all.
What is the POINT of all this "innovation" in pgp signing, bitcoin script signing, bolt addresses and cryptography at large , all this shit people have been working on for a decade towards various shades of trustless peer exchange, if this basic ability escapes the mention of everyone in bitcoin.
While I am all for the protection of privacy but we still need a way to identify criminals and bring them to justice. Even without governments a market for crime fighting will exist it would only take time before someone developed tools to solve crimes.
You are mentally ill. If you believe the only way to pursue justice and identify a crime is to track every dollar and everywhere it goes, you are a deeply sick individual who needs help. LEO's have many tools to track down real crimes. You know, things like investigations and due process, with evidence. Condemning everyone to a financial panopticon for the violent crimes of a very few number of people , very very few or society would not be able to function at all.
What you actually mean is tracking down and extorting rent from non-violent "criminals", and doing so in the most socially destructive and lazy way, total monetary control. If this is your belief, why are you even in bitcoin. Sell your BTC for worldcoin or a CBDCS and Get recked.
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First off chill. Let’s be civil about this no need for naming calling.
Comparing zaps to funding business ventures is ridiculous. Sure no one cares if you sling a few cents around but you best believe if millions were moving around on this site it would be highly regulated plus the sats that are used on this site aren’t even yours until you send them to an LN wallet you own the keys for.
“ But those post bankruptcy assets can be divided up and distributed TO THE PSEUDONYMOUS accounts. The amount these bitcoin addresses invested, is available to all.”
I push back against this. In my opinion the reason why investors are KYC’d is to prevent fraud and flywheel scams. That’s the problem with pseudonyms one person can own 100 Bitcoin addresses across 100 private keys with a simple python script and easily create pump and dumps.
“What is the POINT of all this "innovation" in pgp signing, bitcoin script signing, bolt addresses and cryptography at large , all this shit people have been working on for a decade towards various shades of trustless peer exchange, if this basic ability escapes the mention of everyone in bitcoin.”
This tech was created to persevere privacy and property rights for the individual not society at mass. Trust is still needed period. You are trusting @k00b right now not to rug your SN sat stack. While some interesting concepts have developed about create trust amongst pseudonymous people it still far away from being implemented in real institutions in the real world stuff that takes real skill like flying a plane.
“You are mentally ill. If you believe the only way to pursue justice and identify a crime is to track every dollar and everywhere it goes, you are a deeply sick individual who needs help. LEO's have many tools to track down real crimes. You know, things like investigations and due process, with evidence. Condemning everyone to a financial panopticon for the violent crimes of a very few number of people , very very few or society would not be able to function at all.”
I said absolutely nothing about tracking dollars. What I said is people who are motivated enough to develop tools to track bitcoin payments to solve crime will emerge especially if a victim of such crime has deep pockets. Government or not it’s the constant tug of war between safety and privacy thus have various degrees of tradeoffs.
“ What you actually mean is tracking down and extorting rent from non-violent "criminals", and doing so in the most socially destructive and lazy way, total monetary control. If this is your belief, why are you even in bitcoin. Sell your BTC for worldcoin or a CBDCS and Get recked.”
Now you are just putting words in my mouth. Sorry I don’t share your view of the world that every i do and touch has to be no-KYC focused. As the cypherpunks say the individual should have the choice of what information and data they wish to share with the world. If you don’t want to KYC for these volcano bonds then don’t. Those who do well it’s their life and their choice and they deserve what ever comes with that decision. Riches or complete surveillance.
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You can use > before a line to indent a quote fyi.
if millions were moving around on this site it would be highly regulated
you say without any evidence. I have evidence Billions are moving around with NO regulation. In a worst, trustless environment then investing in El Salvador.
This tech was created to persevere privacy and property rights for the individual not society at mass
Society is made up of individuals. You cannot show me "society" I can show you an individual. Removed from Society an individual still exists.
That’s the problem with pseudonyms one person can own 100 Bitcoin addresses across 100 private keys with a simple python script and easily create pump and dumps.
That does not matter when you are investing in Volcano Bonds. All that matters is that the government and the company pay back whatever the result of a bankrupcy proceeding is. If 100 accounts owned by one person pump ES bonds, it does not change the fundamentals of the project or the abilty to refund those accounts. Pump and dumps are only a concern for NON bitcoin shitcoins, annoymity is not. It's like saying a person can only own 1 oz of gold and if they own 3 they are pumping gold. It doesn't make sense to say that.
it still far away from being implemented in real institutions in the real world stuff that takes real skill like flying a plane
false
Government or not it’s the constant tug of war between safety and privacy thus have various degrees of tradeoffs.
yeah, the tradeoff is tracking funds, you advocated for the government having the ability to KYC individuals to prevent Crime. Which is Tracking. You don't even know what your are saying. That's ok but learn how and why bitcoin started.
If you don’t want to KYC for these volcano bonds then don’t. Those who do well it’s their life and their choice and they deserve what ever comes with that decision.
I agree, but you were stating that it was a necessity to pay back investors, it's not. You do not need KYC to pay back investors any more than you need to know the real names of a silent partner in a corporation. KYC creates a potential for harm down the road that does not need to exist. Like signing up for random online lotteries and wondering why your email and password are on a hackers database.
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I like this. "It's an investment in El Salvador." Yup.
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What do you think?
ESG can go fuck itself. It's already a neutered tiger at this point, with energy concerns and wars around the world forcing it to get "Un-woke" real fast. It's like a pet initiative high society and old boys clubs are indulging their wives in so they let them sleep around the rest of the year.
Much rests on Bukele and his team creating a culture and institution that can survive him leaving. Ideally he would stick with the constitution and not run again, for instance. He could support someone else who is like minded and trustworthy from his party to run, having the 90% of voter approval shift from a cult of personality (however deserved, it is) to one invested in the countries systems. Then run himself as a senator or whatever the members are called in the upper chamber. That is the sign of a great statesman , and that is what they built in America, Britain and even places like Ghana, Mexico.
Fuck the cartels. Keep them locked up. If it was me i would feed those bastards every two days. Before Human rights, all laws are based on biblical restitution. Before Biblical law exists Natural Law. These are animals with every right to be locked up, based on Natural Law. Should it be the state doing it ? Probably not. But the hard truth of practicality with animals and humans is: a hard hand is needed.
Notice i said practicality and not principals. With a situation preceding Bukele, so inhumane, human rights are meaningless. with a situation so stable because of him, commerce and growth can take place.
The bonds will be appealing despite the MSM and NGO attacks (Cia media attacks) because everyone and their mother knows these assholes deserve it, deserve worse.
If the stability lasts, it will be as worthwhile an investment as any in any thrid world country, slightly better for its pro-bitcoin policies.
What you are asking me is if the 70,000 criminals locked up without due process is worth the drop in crime and lives saved. In the case of ES, Yes.
Is the less than 2000 wrongly imprisoned people, worth the drop in crime and death. Yes. they will be release and hopefully compensated for the mistake.
Is the 164 dead during the entire operation worth the drop in crime. Yes.
I would take those very low odds of being falsely imprisoned, myself , if it meant safer street and a positive business environment. Think of all the people alive now who can be productive and enjoy this new El Salvador.
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This is a security not crypto
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Securities do not need to have KYC. they could be KYC free, so this is a design choice.
The quetion is why and at what cost/benefit.
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Ok, I'll agree you can have securities without KYC, that's true. But that would eliminate many jurisdictions from offering them, as every country has securities laws. The company or government the securities are drawn on do need oversight and enforcement though, otherwise you'd never see a timely or honest earnings statement, yield's could change, insurance would get crazy, and there would be no legal claim by the securities' holders. That's kinda the thing here though, how strong is the legal claim of Volcano Token buyers? Who's going to pay for and invoke the international court for recovery?
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