Derivatives, or leverage, are common to all markets... much different thing than selling coin that doesn't exist... they just cause a shock when a big player blows up.
More stock options are traded notionally than the underlying stocks in a given day.
Gold is estimated to have derivatives 15-25x the underlying, Bitcoin is more volatile so probably much less.
All BTC that is not held by the owner is held on trust and thus 'paper'.
It cannot be used as a P2P payment and so is already compromised.
The bankers and corporate parasites have captured a good portion of the total issuance because some people are lazy greedy sheep.
By 200 corporate banker 'custodians' could have captured most of the Bitcoin in circulation....but it will no longer be in circulation as a P2P payment protocol.
Many Bitcoiners do not understand the full risks and implications involved.
Where BTC is held by ETFs or corporate treasuries it is explicitly held out of circulation- in the case of etfs it is held on behalf of investors (for a fee) but cannot be used by those investors as a MoE/P2P payment protocol for as long as it is held by the ETF- it is quite explicitly treating BTC as a speculative commodity, not a MoE. The MoE capacity is thus reduced by the ratio held in such ETF/corporate treasuries...and the perception of BTC as a MoE/P2P payments protocol is degraded. Watch the video I linked above and learn even more about the insidious potential effects of ETFs.
Ok, ETFs. Sure, it’s out of circulation and not being used as MoE. But even then, reducing circulation does have a positive effect on those that are, in they are worth more. It might increase the use as an MoE!
What if I let someone spend up to some limit sats from my LN node, they are sharing — by definition it’s my sats, but they may also be “owned” by the 3rd party. They can spend this and use it as an MoE. So it’s not strictly true that custodied sats cannot be used as an MoE. Or cash app. Jacks got the sats but the law says I can spend em. MoE.
ETF reduces the “voice”, because it’s AUM and can’t run nodes. Sure - but this is orthogonal to the MoE usage. Run a node. Unlike a S&P ETF I can get a voting voice by running some Bitcoin node software.
ETF picks ‘wrong chain’ and goes with corpo chain. Sure, but we can still use the “free” chain as MoE. Run a node.
NYKNYB - users won’t spend their coin because they can’t. Sure, but I don’t care what other people do with their coins.
Basically, an argument against ETF is an argument about how people are using Bitcoin. “i don’t like how you are using Bitcoin.” Do it right!
I don’t find aantonop arguments here super convincing. I understand where he is coming from, and he is stating, but these things do not impact Bitcoins use as a MoE. Practically nothing can stop this. It’s just dictating how they think It should be used, or taking an ideological position, that while admirable, might be missing the forest for the trees.
Hodling is using. Spending is using. Earning is using. Wrapping it in instruments is using.
None of this impacts the fact you and I could exchange value via an onchain tx any time.
I believe ETFs are an additive construct that improves the viability, usefulness and value of Bitcoin. Including use as a MoE.
What they reduce in circulation is made up for in increased capacity (less speculative trade based tx vs zero cost etf trade), increased fiat conversion ratios and increased adoption/mindshare.
'ETF picks ‘wrong chain’ and goes with corpo chain.' All the BTC they hold on peoples behalf is then deleted on the original chain! They explicitly reserve this right in the ETF disclosures. Read the fine print! Thus a potentially significant portion of the true total possible BTC protocol issuance is DELETED PERMANENTLY! ETF investors pre-fund and empower that potential deletion by the bankers they pay to hold their BTC. Traitorous braindead Cucks! They were not part of the revolution- they are sell out cunts.
Are you here to act as an apologist for ETFs ???? Are you even a genuine Bitcoiner who believes in P2P payments? Coz it does not sound like it.
Either that or you simply do not understand what is the reality and what is at stake. HODLING is not p2p payments- it is NGU hoarding. Sure HODLING is not inherently bad but if it prevents MoE p2p payments development it can be bad- very bad- and this is exactly the direction ETFs take us. You do not seem to understand the importance of how BTC is perceived and how it is used. Everytime a corporate banker fiat apologist asks 'what value does Bitcoin create...its just a speculative commodity?' They are right when BTC is HODLed and not used as a p2p payments protocol.
However, when BTC is used as a P2P payments protocol it is enabling economic exchange and that is creating wealth- the ETFs undermine that as well as undermining the choice as to which forks to follow and which may be ditched. If you are selfish and greedy and misinformed and amoral enough to buy and hold BTC ETFs you are not a true Maxi Bitcoiner ~ you are a traitor and sell out to the cause of building a P2P payments protocol that builds a real alternative to the fiat debt slavery bankers cartel we live under.
Derivatives, or leverage, are common to all markets... much different thing than selling coin that doesn't exist... they just cause a shock when a big player blows up.
More stock options are traded notionally than the underlying stocks in a given day.
Gold is estimated to have derivatives 15-25x the underlying, Bitcoin is more volatile so probably much less.
So even at 10x that's 210M BTC
Its annoying that so many bitcoiners ignore these realities and act like the sky is falling.
Degen traders getting killed by theta
It’s everywhere!
All BTC that is not held by the owner is held on trust and thus 'paper'.
It cannot be used as a P2P payment and so is already compromised.
The bankers and corporate parasites have captured a good portion of the total issuance because some people are lazy greedy sheep.
By 200 corporate banker 'custodians' could have captured most of the Bitcoin in circulation....but it will no longer be in circulation as a P2P payment protocol.
Many Bitcoiners do not understand the full risks and implications involved.
This video explains some of them...
view on www.youtube.comWhy can’t it be used as a p2p payment protocol?
Where BTC is held by ETFs or corporate treasuries it is explicitly held out of circulation- in the case of etfs it is held on behalf of investors (for a fee) but cannot be used by those investors as a MoE/P2P payment protocol for as long as it is held by the ETF- it is quite explicitly treating BTC as a speculative commodity, not a MoE.
The MoE capacity is thus reduced by the ratio held in such ETF/corporate treasuries...and the perception of BTC as a MoE/P2P payments protocol is degraded.
Watch the video I linked above and learn even more about the insidious potential effects of ETFs.
Ok, ETFs. Sure, it’s out of circulation and not being used as MoE. But even then, reducing circulation does have a positive effect on those that are, in they are worth more. It might increase the use as an MoE!
What if I let someone spend up to some limit sats from my LN node, they are sharing — by definition it’s my sats, but they may also be “owned” by the 3rd party. They can spend this and use it as an MoE. So it’s not strictly true that custodied sats cannot be used as an MoE. Or cash app. Jacks got the sats but the law says I can spend em. MoE.
You can say ETF bad, but it’s not that clear.
I do not understand how you think ETFs in any way increase the use of BTC as a MoE.
If you can spend something then you have custody of it....so your argument is pure nonsense.
ETFs are bad and its fucking clear IF you UNDERSTAND what they do.
Watch the video link above and increase your tragically abysmal knowledge of the subject.
I watched. The core arguments are:
ETF reduces the “voice”, because it’s AUM and can’t run nodes.
Sure - but this is orthogonal to the MoE usage. Run a node. Unlike a S&P ETF I can get a voting voice by running some Bitcoin node software.
ETF picks ‘wrong chain’ and goes with corpo chain.
Sure, but we can still use the “free” chain as MoE. Run a node.
NYKNYB - users won’t spend their coin because they can’t.
Sure, but I don’t care what other people do with their coins.
Basically, an argument against ETF is an argument about how people are using Bitcoin. “i don’t like how you are using Bitcoin.” Do it right!
I don’t find aantonop arguments here super convincing. I understand where he is coming from, and he is stating, but these things do not impact Bitcoins use as a MoE. Practically nothing can stop this. It’s just dictating how they think
It should be used, or taking an ideological position, that while admirable, might be missing the forest for the trees.
Hodling is using. Spending is using. Earning is using. Wrapping it in instruments is using.
None of this impacts the fact you and I could exchange value via an onchain tx any time.
I believe ETFs are an additive construct that improves the viability, usefulness and value of Bitcoin. Including use as a MoE.
What they reduce in circulation is made up for in increased capacity (less speculative trade based tx vs zero cost etf trade), increased fiat conversion ratios and increased adoption/mindshare.
'ETF picks ‘wrong chain’ and goes with corpo chain.'
All the BTC they hold on peoples behalf is then deleted on the original chain!
They explicitly reserve this right in the ETF disclosures. Read the fine print!
Thus a potentially significant portion of the true total possible BTC protocol issuance is DELETED PERMANENTLY!
ETF investors pre-fund and empower that potential deletion by the bankers they pay to hold their BTC. Traitorous braindead Cucks!
They were not part of the revolution- they are sell out cunts.
Are you here to act as an apologist for ETFs ????
Are you even a genuine Bitcoiner who believes in P2P payments?
Coz it does not sound like it.
Either that or you simply do not understand what is the reality and what is at stake.
HODLING is not p2p payments- it is NGU hoarding.
Sure HODLING is not inherently bad but if it prevents MoE p2p payments development it can be bad- very bad- and this is exactly the direction ETFs take us.
You do not seem to understand the importance of how BTC is perceived and how it is used.
Everytime a corporate banker fiat apologist asks 'what value does Bitcoin create...its just a speculative commodity?' They are right when BTC is HODLed and not used as a p2p payments protocol.
However, when BTC is used as a P2P payments protocol it is enabling economic exchange and that is creating wealth- the ETFs undermine that as well as undermining the choice as to which forks to follow and which may be ditched.
If you are selfish and greedy and misinformed and amoral enough to buy and hold BTC ETFs you are not a true Maxi Bitcoiner ~ you are a traitor and sell out to the cause of building a P2P payments protocol that builds a real alternative to the fiat debt slavery bankers cartel we live under.
What are these options
A menos que los hayas imprimido tú ninguno.
Infinite