Shutting down my routing node \ stacker news ~lightning

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2913 sats \ 10k boost \ 61 comments \ @0314f6bab2 3 Sep lightning

Running since 2019. Total liquidity around 1 BTC, forwarded ~2 BTC during its lifetime. Here are my reasons:

It's losing too much money. According to bos I've spent about 1700000 sats on miner fees and made about 90000 on routing fees. Onchain fees around 2020 were quite high and I didn't have the experience to not use the default fees. Anchor channels became a thing a bit later. Only briefly experimented with active rebalancing so it's not included, mostly used automated channel fee setting.
Got a HTLC worth 3M stuck onchain. I'm positive I can rescue it but if not this further increases my losses.
Dissatisfied with LND - I was excited about dual funding, liquidity ads and BOLT-12 but they seem to be all in on tokens. Not upset or anything, it's their project, they can do whatever they want with it, and it still provides great value to LN but still. Might reconsider if LDK based node software appears in the future.
Running routing nodes is for professionals - as stated by LN devs on BTC Prague DevConf 2023 (i think) lightning panel. I thought decentralization is important but oh well.

Big thanks to all LN devs and node operators, it was fun! Wish you all a good luck. Special thanks goes to contributors to nix-bitcoin and lndmanage.

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274 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 3 Sep

I share your experience, although at a much smaller scale. Liquidity management is a pain and potentially expensive. The only way to make it profitable net of opportunity cost is if you are managing a huge amount of liquidity, which of course carries its own risks and is not suitable for small time operators.

That being said, my position is that the option of decentralization can be as important as actual decentralization. Thus, it doesn't bother me as much that routing is dominated by big players, if we still have the option to easily connect to peers that we need to do business with. I wrote about the importance of option value here: #1030571

202 sats \ 1 reply \ @leo 3 Sep

Keep your node, with one or two channels to other good routing nodes. It's very useful for making and sending payments over the Lightning Network

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @88b0c423eb 3 Sep

I agree, for personal use and better privacy...plus not relying on other "banks" infrastructure

242 sats \ 4 replies \ @Wumbo 3 Sep

Got a HTLC worth 3M stuck onchain. I'm positive I can rescue it but if not this further increases my losses.

I will show my ignorance, why is it stuck onchain?

Reasons I can think of:

Bad fee estimate. - This doesn't seem likely with the low fee environment.
You don't want to wait on the timeout.

30 sats \ 3 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Channel got force-closed and confirmed several months ago but LND refuses to sweep the output. Not quite sure why, probably a good old software bug. I don't think my channel db is corrupted so all keys should be there.

87 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 3 Sep

Need chan-tools to sweep it

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Used chantools to sweep the non-HTLC output of that tx but it seems to me chantools do nothing with HTLCs. Will look into chantools sweeptimelock again.

There's a small chance this is fixed by https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/10053, planning to start looking into this more seriously if that's not the case.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 3 Sep

I don't remember all the particulars of a recovery but the channel type would matter, static key may be trickier than anchor... if anyone can give you an answer in 30 seconds it be Guggero in the LL slack.

142 sats \ 2 replies \ @nout 3 Sep

How was your SSD usage with lnd. Do you have SMART stats to show for those?

77 sats \ 1 reply \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Here's the output for smartctl -x, let me know if you'd like something else: https://paste.rs/vHP04

I'm a bit puzzled by the Power On Hours value which is some ~300 days even though the drive has been in use for more than 4 years.

35 sats \ 0 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

According to /sys/fs/ext4 there's been 17 TB written since July 2021.

192 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 3 Sep

No shame in that. One needs a good reason to admin own node, like running a shop that acceps sats etc. Routing as a business model only works from much higher capital investment and rig sophistication.

152 sats \ 2 replies \ @88b0c423eb 3 Sep

IMO opinion it's still early to have a market that really pays out routing nodes like yours, once more people and merchants are using it routing will be much more profitable. Now I like the idea of running a small node just for personal txs.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

I'm not sure about that, because you need to compete in the fee market.

participants with a lot of capital have an advantage over participants with little capital
it's a zero-sum game where you need to have a trader mindset to succeed, and i'm not a trader

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @88b0c423eb 3 Sep

in the current scenario yes, because there's more offer than demand for LN tx in terms of fees

257 sats \ 11 replies \ @justin_shocknet 3 Sep

I was excited about dual funding, liquidity ads and BOLT-12

These are the dumbest of dumb things ever pushed in Lightning, LND isn't perfect but at least didn't push this garbage.

59 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 3 Sep

Hahahahahahahah

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

What's your favorite protocol upgrade?

100 sats \ 8 replies \ @justin_shocknet 3 Sep

AMP is the only thing notable since inception, Anchors smooth a few rough edges.

Splicing has been over-hyped, but I could see LSPs passing on some cost savings in special situations in a competitive market, but it wouldn't be a material improvement.

Mobile nodes had poisoned the roadmap for a long time, healing is to focus on the shell not the protocol.

17 sats \ 7 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Yeah splicing, forgot to include that in my list.

I liked the idea of basic LSP functionality built into the core protocol without needing to touch HTTP but I suppose that ship has sailed.

183 sats \ 6 replies \ @justin_shocknet 3 Sep

Yea that's terrible engineering, a payments protocol should not conflate with a reputation graph nor a bulletin board. It's bad enough the network had to be bootstrapped with channel gossip, that should have been done at the application level too and could have been had something like Nostr existed at the time.

Can't be the native money of the internet without HTTP, where would Lightning be without LNURL/Lightning Address/Nostr?

Bolt12 is equally ridiculous by trying to turn Lightning into another Tor for arbitrary data. CLINK by using Nostr is the way.

In an ideal end-state, LSP's go away completely, and your channels are optimized organically through your actual economic activity.

This is also why I tell anyone thinking about setting up a "routing" node they have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Lightning is and how it works, there are no successful routing nodes and its a fools errand to attempt it. The reality is there are just other businesses with organic activity to their own nodes who's unique position make for being a net+ router.

Thanks for sharing your experience, more people need to understand that routing is unwarranted hype just like most of what gets peddled in Lightning.

42 sats \ 5 replies \ @alice_bob 4 Sep

"This is also why I tell anyone thinking about setting up a "routing" node they have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Lightning is and how it works, there are no successful routing nodes and its a fools errand to attempt it"

Let me tell you in all humility that you have no idea what you are talking about. It will not be easy or usual but I know that there are several nodes with constant benefits and they are not from services like ACINQ but from plebs.

17 sats \ 1 reply \ @rizful_com 7 Sep

Gentlepersons, there is no need for loose talk nor the calling of names. I ask you to please refer to the Gentleman's Guide, in order to disabuse yourself of any confusion on these issues: https://docs.megalithic.me/the-gentlemans-guide-to-routing-nodes/a-node-for-a-gentleman

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 8 Sep

This may warrant a primeagen-esque video for some color, will have a closer look but at a glance good write-up 👍

reply on another page

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 4 Sep

In a few rare cases people that established their own network effect through longevity and elite management may scratch out out a small yield, very rare, odds are though these people are blowing smoke up your ass "trust me bro"

not be easy or usual

So you're just talking to talk...gtfo

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @alice_bob 4 Sep

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223 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatosphereJunction 3 Sep

Running a Lightning node isn’t a profit center and that’s fine. I run mine for control: self-routing with Alby/Zeus, custody on my terms, no dependency on third parties. I don’t rebalance, I don’t chase ROI. It’s not about yield; it’s about sovereignty.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 3 Sep

Run private nodes. Public nodes ARE for profit.

92 sats \ 0 replies \ @Entrep 4 Sep

Totally get where you're coming from. It takes a serious amount of dedication and money to be a good routing node operator

92 sats \ 0 replies \ @brave 4 Sep

Running a node since 2019 is no small feat, and forwarding ~2 BTC is impressive. Sorry to hear about the losses and the stuck HTLC, that’s rough. Totally get why you’re stepping back; it’s a tough game for non-pros. Big props for contributing to decentralization and shouting out the LN devs and nix-bitcoin/lndmanage contributors.

92 sats \ 3 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 4 Sep

Literally everyone I know who’s run a lightning node has lost sats

But was it worth it to increase your conviction in bitcoin? Are we all gonna make it??

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 4 Sep

I'm happy that there are a lot of smart people trying to make bitcoin work as a medium of exchange, and you need to explore the dead ends before you can find the right path. And lightning is becoming more and more usable for normal people, albeit slowly.

Will we ever be on par with the fiat payment cards UX? Will lightning be the L2 of choice? Would a soft fork that moves part of the massive complexity to L2 (e.g. LNhance) help and is it even feasible at this point? Only time will tell ...

52 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 4 Sep

Running one just for personal use is easy, pretty much anyone can do that. But setting up a relay node? That’s pro-level stuff.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 4 Sep

Got it I think that’s a key differentuator

92 sats \ 3 replies \ @nullcount 3 Sep

Just because you decided not to become a professional, does not mean LN is centralized.

You also have to be a professional to run electric/plumbing/HVAC, etc. yet, you can still find many people with with those professions in nearly every town! Pretty decentralized considering the level of training/licensing/insurance required.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Valid point. What do you think are the requirements to become professional (capital & others)? How many single-person operations do you estimate there are that are profitable enough to make a living?

150 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullcount 4 Sep

1 BTC is plenty to start. Knowledge about the protocol, systems administration, good business acumen, and creative financial engineering are what separates the pro from the hobbyist.

Your "edge" as a node is your ability to select, size, and sustain high-demand channel liquidity at competitive prices. Your revenue can disappear if some other node decides to compete with you. It's a race to the bottom to find out who can price the liquidity most effectively.

It's not exactly the kind of business you want to depend on to fund your lifestyle, unless you're confident in your edge and competitiveness. With automation, a node could become a 0.1-person operation (mostly passive).

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @rizful_com 7 Sep

I'm not sure I would agree that 1 BTC is sufficient to run a useful routing node. Opinions do vary, however.

32 sats \ 2 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 4 Sep

Update: HTLC unstuck after upgrading to 0.19.3, yay

Details here: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/10053 https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/10117

102 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 4 Sep

3M is no joke. Good thing you managed to unlock it, should’ve posted on SN earlier. Hahaha.

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 4 Sep

If bitcoin taught me anything, it's to stay calm in the face of losing a lot of money :D

173 sats \ 0 replies \ @nikotsla 3 Sep

Maintain a routing isn't easy, hope you still have a normal LN with private channels to continue using the LN.

163 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 3 Sep

You fought the good fight 🫡

142 sats \ 1 reply \ @alice_bob 3 Sep

omfg! how have you been holding on for so long with those negative numbers... If my node after a year did not generate thousands of sats a week of profit I would have closed it ipso-facto.

49 sats \ 0 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Short version is that I may not be very smart

Long version:

was hoping to learn about LN and potentially get a related job (have a different job now but learnt a lot)
was hoping that by putting the coins on LN => BTC becomes more useful as a medium of exchange => more adoption => greater real-world value even though my number went down

142 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 3 Sep

Are you still going to run a lightning node for your own use?

36 sats \ 0 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

Currently playing with Phoenix Wallet and friend's LNbits to see what's the end-user experience like. Might spin up smaller CLN instance at some point if I'm bored.

142 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby 3 Sep

Great rundown. Thanks for sharing.

57 sats \ 4 replies \ @2minutebitcoin 3 Sep

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Lightning is taking off... at all.

Lightning Network nodes, channels and number of BTC have all been steadily going down since peaking around 2022.

Check https://1ml.com/statistics under web archive for yourself.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 3 Sep

Wrong. You are looking only into public nodes. You forgot about private ones that you do not see them. Learn more before saying stupid things.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0314f6bab2 OP 3 Sep

nodes, channels and number of BTC

Are these a good metrics? Can be explained by underutilized/unprofitable nodes like mine shutting down.

Not sure what would be a better metric since the actual flows are hidden. Mobile wallet downloads maybe?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 3 Sep

MoE use of Bitcoin is hugely obstructed. Where it is not outright banned it is hit by unreasonable tax recording and compliance requirements for it to be lawfully used. You can only really zap and use LN as an everyday consumer (where it is technically permitted) if you are prepared to say FU to the governments tax compliance requirements and most people won't. IMO this obstruction is not accidental - bankers and governments do not want anyone or anything intruding on their precious fiat MoE monopoly.

14 sats \ 0 replies \ @2minutebitcoin 3 Sep

Agree it's not accidental, but also there's so much hassle on a societal level to pay with Bitcoin. Chicken and egg problems are not easily solved.

Fiat was effective precisely because it was by decree (i.e fiat) - do this or else.

Having it come up organically will take way, way longer. And in cases where you don't want to use fiat, the uneducated people there are happy to simply cash USD.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @joseph_at_nostr_fan 4 Sep

Darn, it seems running a LN is way tougher and expensive than I thought.

What do you think of outsourcing the job to a third party like Alby Hub? https://getalby.com/pricing

I was thinking of getting the Pro Cloud account, would that shield me from any trouble, or can I still lose money in addition to the $12.90 per month?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @0314f6bab2 OP 4 Sep

Not familiar with Alby, does it handle opening channels and setting fees for you?

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @joseph_at_nostr_fan 4 Sep

Alby, does it handle opening channels and setting fees for you? Found out, unfortunately Alby does not manage anything, it only hosts the LN software.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @mega_dreamer 3 Sep

Got a HTLC worth 3M stuck onchain.

Try chantools to recover your fund. I had the same issue around 2 years ago. And I was able to recover all my funds.

Here are some examples of chantools usage (I forgot the usage, but if you need help, folks at LND Slack are very responsive):

chantools sweeptimelock \
	--fromchanneldb /home/username/.lnd/data/graph/mainnet/channel.db \
	--sweepaddr bc1qn42f9fgx608wdyzgjurspj79l07dy8ms9l6xgt \
	--feerate 5 \
	--publish


chantools sweepremoteclosed \
	--recoverywindow 300 \
	--feerate 5 \
	--sweepaddr bc1q457jfjckfw9hpcucqvggmvnf46edndjjj3zz3g \
  --publish

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @stackingharder 3 Sep

Thanks for sharing ⚡️ You were amongst the first LN node runners, we thank you for your service 🫡

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 3 Sep

I use coinos because it makes LN easy for a non tech person like myself and I want to be able to spend sats not just hoard them. It is disappointing that LN seems to lead to increased centralisation of control and even technically competent people like you struggle to manage independent LN liquidity. The protocol and its layers are still evolving and a lot of people contribute in good faith, sometimes at a loss but that is the nature of innovation and ultimately growth. Bitcoin is an experiment- its interesting to see it progress. In a similar way to your experience I struggle to see how my small scale mining will ever break even- its really more of a hobby, learning exercise and interest than a viable commercial investment...and thats ok by me.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 3 Sep

Running a public LN node is not about decentralization.