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64 sats \ 13 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Aug \ parent \ on: Socialism In Plain Sight econ
Really? You never see companies mocked? I do. And what we are referring to isn't just planning. It's monopoly state actions. Every company is centrally planned but they have competition and market incentives to push against them.
Of course there is a scale of good to bad utilities. The issue is that when the government controls and centrally plans a utility and it doesnt work the public has few options.
Personally I'd much rather see private investors risk their capital than see them rig the system in their favor. That is what we see over and over again.
But for systems that are life and death how do we know that private investors will put morals and ethics before profits?
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I'm not trying to be smart here but these are the same exact arguments that socialist (Soviets) would make. Just wanted to point that out because I used to think and say the same things.
I think you are making a straw man argument here. You think morals and ethics are present and a given more in the status quo? The incentives of the status quo political system are ethics and morals? The incentives in the monopoly state (democracy included) is power and prestige. Sure, there are moral and ethical people in the various parts of the system. Personally I think our system would work much better if the masses viewed politicians, and government run systems with the same suspicion you put forward of the private sector capitalists. For the record, I'm very suspicious of private companies and public ones like Amazon. Its just much easier for the public to send signals of displeasure to market actors vs. political actors.
But if I just take what you are putting forward as a given think about this. If a private company in a truly free market kills many people what is the consequence? Well... they just opened themselves to being boycotted and destroying the eyes of the public. They have opened themselves up to lawsuits. They opened themselves up to an upstart taking all their customers. The profit motive is a pretty good one. It seems to me to be faster and more decisive than the political systems.
Now, I'm not saying the market is enough. I think a society is built on ethics and morals. I just fail to see that the state monopoly is the best or only way this is brought about. In fact I think the status quo is dependent on a moral system outside of itself. I would argue that monopoly state power erodes morals and ethics. My belief about the US specifically is that the Christian influences on morals and ethics have largely been responsible for most of the good we see around us. The state seems to me to be a secular attempt to replace God with a man made construct. One that can speak things into existence. One that seeks to be the central part of people's lives. Something that you can't question. By contrast the free market is really just nature. Its freedom of choice. Its more democratic than any political system. It is amoral. I think we can agree on that.
I have to ask one more thing. If this is how you think about things that are so important as energy why on earth would you think bitcoin is a good idea? Shouldn't money be centrally managed and planned? I mean its much more influential and important than pretty much any other part of the economy.
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I think bitcoin is a good idea because it helps keep corruption at bay.
When you say I am making a straw man argument I’m not 100% sure what that means.
But overall I think we have some overlapping agreement. You mentioning Amazon is a good example of how the market can make it extremely difficult for an upstart to complete.
If a private company in a truly free market kills many people what is the consequence? Well... they just opened themselves to being boycotted and destroying the eyes of the public. They have opened themselves up to lawsuits.
Like what the cigarette companies did in the 20th century? They gaslighted society for decades before the state (which has an absolute monopoly on law interpretation) finally exposed them and let the population know that on average cigarettes are bad for you.
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Let me ask you a few questions.
- Do you think the state(governments broadly) have grown to big and powerful?
- Do you think there is a corruption problem in the US government?
- If you answer yes to those questions is this a structural problem or is it more of a cultural problem. In other words, how would we improve the status quo vs. starting over which is what I think?
This is kinda where I came from about 20 years ago. Kinda standard Republican views of the time.
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- Absolutely
- Without a doubt
- I think it’s both structural and cultural.
Without doxxing myself I am very involved with my local government/community and the only people who show up to the community organization meetings are old people. The boomer class. Most are still stuck in their secular Marxist ways. When they start talking a certain way I just hold my tongue.
Young people either are too busy (which I don’t buy everybody is busy) or don’t care too busy in the rat race to accumulate as much stuff as they can get.
Plus almost no men show up to these meetings mostly old women.
I say this because politics gets done by the people who show up. While the corporation live and die with profits I still have tremendous respect for individuals who wish to organize pool capital together to mitigate risk in order to bring goods and services to the world. While the state has a different mission to help life be fair for everyone if at all possible.
But is the human condition only about profit and doing something only if you are going to get something back in return?
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Without doxxing myself I am very involved with my local government/community and the only people who show up to the community organization meetings are old people. The boomer class.
Dang man. Good for you. We need more people like you.
Plus almost no men show up to these meetings mostly old women.
That's sad and I see much of the same here. That said, we have a pretty great Lion's Club and those guys do some real good in the community. I'm getting plugged in with them.
Since Covid I've tried to do the same. Start doing something instead of just complaining and being isolated. While I don't live in a city, our community which doesn't have a government does have a Chamber of Commerce and other orgs and I've joined the board and provide technology services at no charge to support their work. When the lockdowns happened I realized that I need to stop larping. While I don't have faith in monopoly government I do believe it doesn't get better unless individuals do things to build better systems. I realized that I was all talk and no action in many ways.
Where I live I see the same things. Its mostly boomers that are involved but I do see a slight change since I started getting involved in local community efforts. I see more people my age (not a boomer) and younger.
Like you I don't want to say to much but please realize that I'm not saying burn it all down today. I am for building up and it takes people. Not politics or the government. Yeah, some people will be in those and do good. I wish them well. But we need to get off our butts and start solving problems whether that be in private orgs or government ones.
To be clear, I'm not saying we should all as individuals only care about profit. But there isn't a government system that is built on virtue. The only way we have virtuous societies is by people that care about ethics and virtue. That care about their neighbors. Yeah, capitalists and free market people often do not talk about this but I think its because they don't really consider the government actually being moral at all. Its amoral. The people and only the people have morals. Everything in our society is a reflection of the people.
For what its worth, I'd much rather see a world where the state is smaller and only really seeks to protect consumers from big corporations and foreign powers. The problem with this idea is that the incentives lead to the growth of the state to something like we have now and worse. If you let the camel put its nose under the corner of the tent the next thing you know its inside and has taken over.
Its hard for me to see a line to set and mechanism to keep the state in check. People will claim the Constitution but really its the people and the people are easily manipulated by politicians and the education system.
I would argue that the free-market thinkers have at least pushed back and limited the growth of the cancer a bit. Without people pushing back it will take over every aspect of our lives. Bitcoin and my faith in God are the two things that keep me from being black-pilled.
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I think bitcoin is a good idea because it helps keep corruption at bay.
Why does it do that though? Why would their be corruption?
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Like what the cigarette companies did in the 20th century? They gaslighted society for decades before the state (which has an absolute monopoly on law interpretation) finally exposed them and let the population know that on average cigarettes are bad for you.
This is my point. The state monopoly has taken the place of the market system in your example. Authority figures were not only not saying smoking was not bad, they said it was good. I'd argue that if you had competition for the "authority figure" role you'd probably had seen the public learn much faster. The state allowed this all to happen under their watch. I don't think that's a good example to say we need the state to keep industry in line.
What we need is the public to realize they can't depend on political systems to be ethical and motivated by their self interest. I'm not saying industry is motivated by the self interest of their customers but rather that the relationship is more transparent and therefore people tend to be more skeptical.
What I meant regarding the straw man was the ethical and moral question. You are asking about that with private businesses. Yeah, they aren't just gonna be always ethical. But the status quo isn't either. They are motivated by profit. Yeah, in modern times many try to market themselves as moral and ethical but your skepticism is fair. My point is the state/politics isn't moral or ethical either. So you are putting up a straw man on the market.
One last thought. Many people do not realize that the legal system can and does exist outside of the state. So I don't see your argument as a strong one for the state monopoly on violence for this is the root of the state's part to play.
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