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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @kepford OP 29 May \ on: Bitcoin: Principles over Expectations - The Vanguard's Call to Action bitcoin
Let me ask you a question. If you are really disappointed by all the chearl-eading for the suits and government shills entering the bitcoin space how exactly did you think bitcoin becoming used more widely would go?
- Did you think people would suddenly start valuing hard money?
- Did you think people would just stop believing in political power systems?
- Did you think suits would suddenly care about sovereignty?
- Did you expect greed to lose to moral purity?
I'm not trying to pick any fights. I just never hear many principled bitcoiners outline how they think bitcoin becomes the standard money for the world.
There's a lot of "bitcoin fixes this" but little on what the middle stages look like.
My answer is I have no clue. But I can tell you I don't see people suddenly becoming skeptical of the existing system and open to bitcoin. Greed and the utility of it as a savings vehicle seems far more likely for the US. Those in more oppressed places likely value the peer to peer aspects of it more.
Hey kepford. You said, "I just never hear many principled bitcoiners outline how they think bitcoin becomes the standard money for the world."
Well I'm sorry for that. Here's some principles for ya:
You give every person on earth a UBI =$1250/mo, $15,000/yr. You prorate/backrate(?) a one time genesis award based on the person's age: UBI * age, so a 20yo receives $30,000 and a 60yo receives $90,000, representing a person saving one month's income each year. Most people will accept this as a better deal than their current financial situation. You agree on a cap which is the maximum a single entity can horde, perhaps 1000 * UBI * yr = $15,000,000. If you need more then that, get married, need more, don't kick your kids out of the house. Your root key should be resettable, perhaps with the help of the escrow organizations of your choice, with some type of failsafe based on your SSN or biometrics, so there is no such thing as "not your keys". The system should be gamified using the Bitcoin app (aka nostr) to incentivize good behaviour according to community decisions (hopefully based on the state of the art of scientific consensus) made by small ad hoc local committees formed as needed by lottery (gov't by sortition), with unlimited appeal/review, until all objections have been addressed on public record. If you don't like your community's process, join or start a different one.
If you make the coin's base unit of value equal to some real-world definable object that everyone can/must agree upon by the nature of it's existential manifestation, i.e. it's describable attributes, then the system is less likely to suffer from Tulip Revolution failures. Base it on time, or work hours, or sunlight, or potatoes, or land area, or energy, or persons (how much is a person worth?) or merit or blurg. Personally I like potatoes, because then you can call them potato chits.
I'd love to discuss this more with you guys but I'll end here because my thumbs are getting tired and I'm still a Luddite when it comes to having AI speak for me.
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Hmm so this seems to me to have very little to do with bitcoin and more to do with a massive one world government able to do this. I'm left wondering why? Why bitcoin vs a central fiat coin like Tether.
UBI is really a nonstarter to me. I don't see this working any differently than welfare has in the past. But thanks for sharing. I just don't think UBI is needed and even if I thought it was it would fall apart.
I see people jumping into bitcoin gradually for years as fiat collapses and massively as it fails faster. Will be rough. I see it happening as part of a collapse most likely. It could happen differently. Who knows.
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"I just don't think UBI is needed and even if I thought it was it would fall apart."
If you couldn't afford a bed or a bicycle then would you think the same?
In order to consolidate our thoughts we need smart people to explore the possibilities and recommend best practices using public discussion, computer models/simulations and in-person role-playing with diverse participants chosen randomly. Stuff like that.
How could you say UBI is not needed? How could you decry welfare? Do you think poor people should not receive money created out of thin air, but big finance should continue to do so?
Cuz big finance is continuing to do so. But thanks to Satoshi we can do the same for all the world's poorest and we don't have to ask anyone permission to do it.
All your Bitcoins were created out of thin are and are merely arbitrary 1's and 0's we must have faith to believe in (can't see them). We can create a similar imaginary mental construct that benefits the poorest. We can. Bitcoin proves you can create imaginary money markets. Imagine world peace, please.
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To be clear. I hear where you are coming from... you seem to have care for those that need help. Don't assume that I'm opposed to helping people. I'm not. I do help people as a part of my life and have for years. There are many different schools of thought on how best to help people in need and UBI is one that think is deeply flawed and comes from an ideology that I have studied and found deeply flawed as well.
I don't assume you are evil or malicious because of this even though I find socialism to be an evil ideology. Don't assume those that are pro-freedom or pro free-market capitalist are evil greedy bastards either. These topics are things I have wrestled with, and debated in my own mind for decades. You might have done the same, I don't know.
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Poverty is the default state of man, but we have so much wealth in the west that we forget this. UBI is the opposite direction. Charity should not be systematized. Charity is required and if we don't appreciate that others need help from time to time and some will always need help then our civilization will crumble.
Do you think poor people should not receive money created out of thin air
No, I don't think people should receive money created out of thin air. But bitcoin is not money created out of thin air. By that statement it appears you do not understand what bitcoin is or how proof of work is. The state and banks create money out of thin air and that is one of the root issues in our society and the world. Energy is required to create bitcoins and this is a key aspect that makes it different from many shitcoins.
How could you say UBI is not needed? How could you decry welfare?
Some of my issues with UBI.
- I oppose theft and the use of force to redistribute wealth. This is what welfare and UBI is.
- I believe the state is the worst at helping people that need help and enabling people that are not helped by a hand out. This function is best done by communities, charities, and churches. Not the state.
- When the state does this function it robs the people of their connection with their communities. They resent how wealth is distributed and a portion of the population is taught to become helpless instead of becoming useful.
Its not because I don't think there is poverty in the world or even in my back yard. Those facts are WHY I'm opposed to UBI.
UBI is a socialist idea and has these root issues we have seen in socialism and social welfare done on a massive scale. Welfare has its place and on a hyper local level done in a voluntary way it is a beautiful thing.
I think we should just agree to disagree but it appears that bitcoin isn't really the topic here you are interested in but rather socialism.
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