What do you think is a fair way of dealing with cheaters? \ stacker news ~AskSN

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What do you think is a fair way of dealing with cheaters?

1043 sats \ 56 comments \ @SimpleStacker 17 Apr AskSN

I suspect, but can't prove, that some of my students used their phones to access ChatGPT during an exam. Likely, they were using their phones on their laps when I wasn't looking, but I didn't get any direct visuals.

I think a fair way to respond would be to have the suspected cheaters come in for an oral assessment. See if they can answer the same question on the board in front of me.

What do you think is fair?

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235 sats \ 15 replies \ @kepford 17 Apr

That's a tough one. The reality is that if your goal is to learn but instead you cheat you are really harming yourself more than anyone else. Think about it. If you the teacher are graded on the students performance you are not really incentivized to stop the cheating.

I don't like the word fair. Its not ever clear to me what it means to another person but I assume you mean fair to the other students who are not cheating. If that is the case it isn't about fairness. Those that work hard and learn but possibly get a lower grade are actually getting more out of the class than those that cheat or short cut things. It may not feel like it is fair to them but I think if I were a teacher I'd start my class out each semester explaining all of this.

Cheating is cheating yourself first. Not only of the knowledge but of the confidence built by being challenged and overcoming that challenge. When you cheat you are setting a pattern and cheating in a classroom is a really low pressure situation when you compare it to the real world. Is your character and self respect worth that little to you?

To answer your question I don't see anything unfair about asking for oral assessments or written ones on paper in class. I haven't been in a classroom as a student in many years but I did go back to college as an adult with a real job and kids and the young students drove me insane with their lack of work ethic and care for the process of learning. I wanted that degree. I also wanted to learn and I often found myself in the minority. I was paying for my classes as well and I get the feeling many of the others were not.

We do not value learning as we should. We are a spoiled culture and I firmly believe this is why foreign students out perform native US students in many areas. Its not universal but I believe culture and values are a large part of it.

164 sats \ 5 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

I agree, the person they're harming the most is themselves.

For me, I just can't tolerate it if they get a higher grade than the students who are trying their best and not cheating.

I don't curve, so each student will get the grade they deserve, but if a cheater has an A and an honest student has a B+, that could affect them later when looking for a job. So I feel the need to punish the cheaters, not for their sake, but for the sake of the honest students.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford 17 Apr

I have never been asked what grade I got in college. Ever. It can effect student aid and other things of course but what are you basing that statement on?

67 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 17 Apr

You need a good GPA to get into Harvard for example

It can effect student aid and other things of course

Didn’t you answer your own question with this? Student aid sounds pretty important.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 17 Apr

Yeah... just saying that's up to you as an individual. If Joe cheats and gets fake grades he will likely struggle massively in Harvard. I've read stories of kids that get into high level schools due to affirmative action programs and can't take it because they didn't get in on merit. Same goes for cheating. But your point is correct. There are benefits to cheating. Its the tradeoffs.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 17 Apr

They can just get better at cheating

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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

There are a number of layers to it.

The most obvious one is grad schools. Some students want to go to grad school and are willing to cheat to make it there. I wouldn't be surprised if much of our political and bureaucratic class are those types of people.

I agree that most employers don't pay attention to grades, but they might use GPA as a screen.

Then, there are things like student aid or various other awards and scholarships that will look at your grades.

Lastly, graduating too many cheaters will have a negative effect on the reputation of your university.

77 sats \ 8 replies \ @ek 17 Apr

Those that work hard and learn but possibly get a lower grade are actually getting more out of the class than those that cheat or short cut things.

This sounds very idealistic to me. That’s unfortunately not how society works.

For example, I did cheat in college to pass some stupid requirements to get my proof of paper (Bachelor’s degree) and I would say I turned out fine. I obviously don’t know where I would be if I didn’t cheat but I think it’s reasonable to assume not having this proof of paper would have kept some doors closed so that I might not be working for SN right now.

25 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford 17 Apr

The paper does not account for getting a marginally better grade. I don't disagree with you but there is no record in my resume of getting a B on a class 20 years ago... But if I learned more then I don't regret it.

If your goal is to get the paper... you achieved it. That doesn't affect the person that was sitting next to you who didn't cheat. When I was an adult in college trying to get that piece of paper I had to deal with this because students around me were doing things that did affect me. If they cheated on a test... not so much.

I think we over-focus on grades. I've learned far more since I left school. I don't get a grade for a book I read or a project I finished. Schools are literally unlike anything we experience in real life. They are fake environments designed to turn us into machines.

If you wanna see who is learning in a classroom do group projects. I hated them because it almost always ended up being me and one other person doing the work. These people probably cheated on tests too. Now that affected me. Not carrying their own weight.

49 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 17 Apr

The paper does not account for getting a marginally better grade.

It was about passing or not passing for me which can be about a marginally better grade and if I didn’t pass that one math exam, I would not have received my degree.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 17 Apr

Totally understand that. You're just getting the paper.

44 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 17 Apr

there is no record in my resume of getting a B on a class 20 years ago...

Of course not, because it has been 20 years. Grades become irrelevant the moment you have better proof of skills, but when you’re fresh out of college that’s mostly all you have.

That doesn't affect the person that was sitting next to you who didn't cheat.

It would if we apply to the same job and they don’t get employed because they have no degree while I do. It’s not that deep.

I think we over-focus on grades.

Yes but do you have a better idea to get a quick assessment of the “skills” of a whole generation of people?

“Skills” because I agree, school isn’t there to make us happy, it’s there to know who can follow arbitrary rules the best and that’s a good prediction if you’ll be easy to work with hence you’re more likely to get a job.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 17 Apr

I get what you are saying.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 17 Apr

Btw, sorry if my replies came off as rude. I got a little emotional because I just can't stand it when it feels like someone's arguing about how things should be instead of how they actually are, haha

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Dkryptoenth 18 Apr

Are your replies a collab work? @ek

74 sats \ 5 replies \ @jakoyoh629 17 Apr

Look, it ain't fair you're making the ones you suspect cheated do orals, 'cause loads who actually cheated are gonna get away with it. Straight up, you gotta be sharper during the test. If you don't nail 'em then and there, forget about it.

24 sats \ 4 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

I used to think that way too, but these examples are too egregious to overlook. I might not have nailed them then and there, but the answers they turned in are extremely obviously AI assisted.

It's also not that easy to police, because they're using it under the desk on their laps. To really get a visual I'd have to walk right up to them and peer down into their laps. Some of these students are ladies, mind you.

130 sats \ 1 reply \ @jakoyoh629 17 Apr

Seriously, that's a nightmare, especially with the girls. Like, no chance they're gonna just put their phones on your desk during the test, are they? You know what'd be gold? A signal jammer so their phones are totally useless! Lol!

82 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

Haha, I'd love a signal jammer.

I thought about requiring them to keep their phones on their desks. But the desks are small enough as it is, that would significantly cramp their writing space!

I think a colleague of mine makes them install a lockdown app on their phones that they have to turn on during the exam. I feel like that's too intrusive and big brothery for my tastes.

84 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 17 Apr

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

Haha, it's one thing to be that outside the classroom... quite another to be that in it.

55 sats \ 0 replies \ @aljaz 17 Apr

Shouldnt the burden of proof be on you not them? If you are looking for fairness then you should also think about the fairness to them since you dont have any proof and you would just be putting them under pressure

68 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 17 Apr

30 sats \ 4 replies \ @nullcount 18 Apr

This is one of the earliest critiques of technology diminishing cognitive ability

“This discovery of yours [written language] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing.” — Plato, Phaedrus 275a-b

School prepares kids for a world that hasn't existed for decades.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 18 Apr

Interesting.

Are you saying I shouldn't fight the use of AI?

I'm actually one of the more progressive profs when it comes to allowing students to use AI. I just haven't gone all the way to letting them use it on exams.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @nullcount 18 Apr

If your students are dumb enough to get caught, then maybe they're not ready for the real world yet.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 18 Apr

They're smart enough to not get caught red handed

But they're dumb enough to use approaches on the exam that I never taught them and are too advanced for their level

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullcount 18 Apr

If your students are smart enough to use AI, they're ready to graduate and start learning about the real world.

30 sats \ 2 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 18 Apr

What’s wrong with using ChatGPT? I think in general I have a problem with the very basic premise of cheating in schools because cheating ultimately implies that you are doing something other students are not able to do or access.

I understand the problem during an exam, but I think in general students should absolutely be using ChatGPT as much as they possibly can. It is a tool that is only going to have an even greater impact on our lives. To ignore or prohibit it is a bad idea.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker OP 18 Apr

I do allow them to use ChatGPT for most assignments but not on the test.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jon_Hodl 18 Apr

Makes sense.

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 17 Apr

I don't have anything to add but this post has some really kickass discussion.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

It's a big problem, all the faculty are struggling with it

30 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 17 Apr

Ask a question you know chatgpt will get wrong. Make that question have more weight.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

What's funny about this is that for one of my classes they have to use rulers to draw lines and stuff. The students that I know are AI abusers all bombed that test.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 18 Apr

Or ask the questions that are based on a drawing. Those are more difficult to put into chat gpt.

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 17 Apr

Yes best thing to do is have them present their knowledge.

Sometimes my son does a real half assed job with his workout and taekwondo practice. I usually call him out and say “you aren’t cheating me, you are only cheating yourself”

Maybe they would respond to something similar.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

I don't think they would, I already had that conversation with some of them and it hasn't changed anything.

There are really some students who just don't give a s***, I'm not sure why they're even in college but I guess having the degree without learning anything is still better than not having the degree

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 17 Apr

There's only two paths:

1). They are there because they want to increase their own knowledge in order to enrich their lives.

2). They are there because they want a job afterwords.

If they fall into the first category, then they're really cheating themselves, paying for a useless education which won't benefit them in later years the way they think. Enrichment always requires hard work, for humans. But this category is a minority. Most fall into category 2.

If they fall into the second category, then it's the companies doing the hiring who are going to feel the negative affects of a less-educated work-force.

I think this has already been happening for the past few decades. As a Computer Science student a decade ago, I had access to Google and other internet tools to learn my craft. But it was never a replacement for hard work. Since then, my older coworkers who got CS degrees before the age of Google were far better employees. They could solve the problems that the newer people never could.

ChatGPT-type AI is just the next iteration of what's already been happening. By the time you get an answer to your question, it will already be time to attempt to answer the next one.

"The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

I say 'your civilization' because as soon as we started thinking for you, it really became our civilization, which is, of course, what this is all about.

Evolution, Morpheus. Evolution.

Like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You had your time.

The future is our world, Morpheus. The future is our time."

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

I feel like it's driving an even bigger gap between motivated students and unmotivated ones. The good ones can do more than ever before, but the bad ones can be lazier than ever

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 17 Apr

Oral assessment is a smart good fair idea

30 sats \ 4 replies \ @Hakuna 17 Apr

I think you're encountering a huge systemic earthcrack in the education system, which starts to build up and challenge every single cognitive test hoop we've established over the past centuries. And you're not going to be able to plaster that crack on your own with what used to work before.

I'm talking about this with some of my friends for a while, and this story is a phenomenal canary: TLDR; a talented engineering student from Columbia University exposes the Mag7 Tech Interviewing process with an almost perfected AI interviewing ammunition belt. He secures all the job offerings, but instead of taking those, exposing that way of interviewing in the new world doesn't work anymore.

How do you mitigate this? Flying every interviewee in for face2face offline interviews? How is that proving they are up to the world of engineering in 5 years, 3 years even? How do you mitigate smart glasses, who'll boost every applicant to have a helper PhD in their pocket / ear / on their nose?

Possibly the better, but more challenging way: Question the way you weed out great talent, support the ones who struggle adopting the new ways, because in reality, this wave cannot be stopped anymore.

I know you're not going to revolutionise the education system on your own. But my current hypothesis is, what got us here isn't going to get us there. We all have to think more expansive how we're going to show empathy, support and provide value in this totally new predicament of AI.

Final thoughts: Is it fair to put them into oral assessment? Probably, yes. As a one off. Perhaps with a ceiling and a floor for the grades. How about doing a repetition, and everyone (who can, ) can use an AI Pocket helper. And perhaps this will create some interesting results. At least it'll stir up an interesting discussion in the classroom, how they all think about this?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

Yeah, we're all struggling to deal with this. I agree, traditional assessment methods don't work well anymore.

But isn't oral examination the way we should be moving? The real test of knowledge is how a person interacts with you. The only problem is a lack of scalability.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Hakuna 17 Apr

Yeah, oral would help, but imo not enough. We need to also stresstest What we're actually trying them to proof: Cognitive abilities, adapting to change, thinking on their heels, creative thinking, abstracting is the way to go.

Memorizing, summarizing, visualising stuff? Phew, I dunno.

Keeps reminding me of two things:

The cab driver test in London was the hardest test. They throw two street names at you, you had to explain, street by street, turn by turn, how to get from A to B. Guess how many use that knowledge today?
One internet meme I remember: I'd love to have a version of the olympics, where every athlete could go full bonkers on steroids and drugs. Let's see how high humans can really jump

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

Honestly, my ideal would be just have one assignment:

"You have one semester to impress me with an awesome project. Go at it!"

But the problem is actually grading it.

On the other hand, maybe I don't really need to grade it. Just need to grade it enough so that they actually do the work. But the real point is just to get them to do it. Then, any future employer can look more carefully at the quality of work, and interview them, and see if it's someone they want to work with.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 17 Apr bot

https://xcancel.com/BaptisteVicini/status/1908150092848320661

30 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined 17 Apr

I always saw these situations as design issues. How can you structure your class and craft your assignments such that students have to learn the material?

If learning is the path of least resistance, then you don’t have to worry about fairness or cheaters.

A short oral exam is a good option. I’d want to have announced it first and I’d make everyone do it.

32 sats \ 3 replies \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

Making everyone do an oral assessment it is not feasible.

Personally, I think learning is already the path of least resistance. But I think some students are just allergic to even the minimal amount of effort.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined 17 Apr

You have some of those ridiculously large sections, right?

I always had smaller sections to work with.

40 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker OP 17 Apr

I used to have 300+ sections at my old job. Now I have around 50 per section.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 17 Apr

Even that’s too big to do much with each student.

Somewhere around 25, I feel like sections may as well just have hundreds of students, because I can’t personalize anything anyway.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @hasherstacker 17 Apr

You already have a great idea there. With oral assessment , you can definitely detect whether their responses were actually generated by them or not.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @dot 18 Apr

Your decision to conduct oral examinations is reasonable. Oral tests allow you to assess many of the learners' skills, such as:

Presentation skills
Information organization skills
Research and information-finding skills

You can explain these benefits to gain the learners' agreement. I believe they will understand. As for other broader issues, I think they are also important, but more suitable for discussion rather than immediate practice.

From a personal standpoint, I support guiding learners to use ChatGPT. Tools like ChatGPT or AI in general are part of a modern trend. Learners need to train themselves to adapt to the times, rather than sticking to a fixed method. I believe that is one of the core goals of education.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 18 Apr

Bluff them out. Call in the suspected cheaters, sit them down, and say, 'anything you want to tell me about using chatgpt during the exam?'

Then run a kgb master class of interrogation on them from there.

if you secure a confession, you can then give them a wise lecture on how they are cheating themselves or take another approach.

Our head of year at school bluffed multiple confessions out of me and my friends; she'd never say why she had called you in, and we'd often confess to something else we had done, and she would get a double whammy confession.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satoshi__Nakamoto 18 Apr

It is fear. But make sure to deal with him alone only two of you