pull down to refresh
88 sats \ 10 replies \ @Undisciplined 25 Mar \ parent \ on: Jesus On Economics - Libertarian Christian Institute econ
I’ve definitely read interpretations of Romans 13 that are fully aligned with anarchism and that were not put forward for that purpose.
The problem with most people's understanding of Romans 13 is that they don't read the previous chapter. Of course we know chapters are just markers added later to help the reader, but its hard to read the two together and walk away thinking Paul is talking about the Roman government in his description. It seems to me to be more of a what government should be. And in the context of this discussion we can also include non-state governance.
Contrary to what many Christians think, I would argue Romans is more about how we should respond to authority not, the legitimacy of it or its being "right". When you read the entire Bible it is full from start to finish of a battle between the idolatrous relationship of the people and the state/kings. Kings that put themselves in the position of a god. That constantly put themselves in opposition to God.
The main issue though that affects the church is how the state influences the church. I'm of the view that we are first citizens of the Kingdom of God. We are aliens in a foreign land and our goal is higher than the sinful affairs of the state. We should not get distracted by them and forget that all kingdoms fall. All but the Kingdom of God.
reply
Contrary to what many Christians think, I would argue Romans is more about how we should respond to authority not, the legitimacy of it or its being "right". When you read the entire Bible it is full from start to finish of a battle between the idolatrous relationship of the people and the state/kings. Kings that put themselves in the position of a god. That constantly put themselves in opposition to God.
Exactly this.
This is exactly why so few truly understand the Bible’s teachings: they are always aligned with God, not with human power structures. That’s why you so often hear people say, “Go find God.”
reply
Romans 13:3–4
"[3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer."
Its hard for me to read this knowing all that is recorded by Paul about the government he was under and believe he is describing Rome. Was he referring to Nero as well? Hitler? Obviously there's some context within this letter to the church that is needed to better understand it.
It makes much more sense to me as being a description of authority and how they should behave, but also how Christians should behave in the face of authority over them. Remember that there were revolutionary groups during this time. We can be pretty sure that they were an influence on the readers of Paul's writing.
How much more powerful are these writings when you realize what Paul would endure at the hands of the government of his day. He was a Roman citizen and he used his rights of citizenship to his benefit, or rather the benefit of his mission.
Paul disobeyed the government as did most of the early Christians. However they didn't seem to resist with violence. We see in historical writings of the time that Christians refused to defend themselves in the Roman gladiatorial fights for example.
It seems to me that Paul could have been trying to reframe the view upward, away from the oppressors. The Roman state.
I'm not a theologian but I have listened to many discuss these two chapters and read them and thought about them for many years. Just my current thoughts.
reply
I don't disagree, but it's hard to read this passage and conclude that state power is always illegitimate:
Romans 13:6-7 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
I think I'd consider myself Kuyperian in my understanding of political issues (the notion of sphere sovereignty)
reply
That's fair. To that point I go back to the idea of state power vs. hierarchy. I think it is hard to read the Bible and leave with a view that anything that places itself above God is legitimate. Are these authorities "ministers of God" or is that just what they should be. Like many passages I think we might be asking to much of these verses.
Personally I apply this passage in that I need to submit to the state in most things as God has allowed it to exist. I know this is a temporary situation and God's justice will be done in the end. Obviously there are times when we should or must resist or go against the state, but I believe I must be prepared to accept the consequences of that decision. I pray for the rulers over me. I don't hate them. They are not my enemy. The system is however. It is not God's system. Its a fallen world where Satan roams about seeking to destroy.
I'm always reminded of when the children of Israel asked for a king like the other nations. God makes it clear that this is a rejection of Him, not Samuel. During this time God's people lived under the authority of judges and were advised by the prophets.
Here's where I think modern Christians read to much into Romans 13. I don't think this is Paul saying this is God's system. Its hard to see that. It is for me. I have a hard time believing you can have a "Christian" state. Christ does not share his throne with men. But, if Jesus didn't overthrow Roman with military force it makes it hard for me to say we should do this. I can accept that the state is legit if by that it is meant that its existence is above me. I reject the idea that its God's ideal form of governance.
I hold to "No king but Christ". But its not my place to overthrow the rulers of this world. I pray that Christ would overthrow their hearts, that they would seek to be stewards of his will and live by Romans 13.
reply
I definitely agree that Romans 13 can be abused to justify all sorts of ill advised government interventions, as well as your point about human kings vs. God's rule.
A passage that I've actually used in my teaching is 1 Samuel 8:10-18
10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him. 11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
I use it to teach that people have had a love hate relationship with their government and taxes since the dawn of time :)
reply
I once heard Bob Murphy bring up this point in the application of Rom 13.
If Romans 13 means Christians should support their government, then what justification can the US have to overthrow the government in Iraq. After all, Rom 13 says they are "ministers of God".
Most that hold to Romans 13 justifying governments like the one in the US seem to be pretty flexible in its application. Its interesting to say the least.
This is an area of much disagreement and I think its healthy to wrestle with it. I have for years. Those that seem to use Romans 13 to justify the US gov don't like to talk about Nazi Germany and how it was applied by churchmen of the time that remained silent. I don't see a massive gap between Nazi Germany and Rome of Paul's day. There's a clear difference but on the authoritarian side of things Rome was pretty terrible... and yet. We have Romans 13 to deal with.
reply
Actually 1 Peter 2:13–17 is very helpful.
[13] Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, [14] or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. [15] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. [16] Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. [17] Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. (ESV)
Peter goes on to advise us towards a humble attitude doing this as service to God.
reply
Same here.
reply
Huh, i'd be interested in reading that
reply