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Since the history territory is deader than Vitalik Buterin's wang, I thought I would ask this on askSN.
Who for you was the worst dictator or tyrant in history?
There are plenty of contenders, I tend to think of the worst as those of the past 100 years or so, simply because in the colonial days, everyone was a bastard.
That being said, I think Pol Pot was the worst. The reason why is because he achieved nothing while causing maximum destruction. Other dictators left behind nations that at least functioned after their rule - Pol Pot left Cambodia a graveyard, a failed state that took decades to recover. His rule was an exercise in self-destruction with no redeeming qualities.
the whole idea of turning a country into an agrarian communist utopia was retarded.
Other highlights of idiocy:
He abolished money, private property, and education. He closed schools, hospitals, and banks, forcing people into agrarian labor camps. He executed doctors, teachers, engineers, leaving Cambodia without skilled professionals.
People with glasses were getting arrested and executed because glasses were thought to mean a person was an intellectual (as a glasses wearer, I can assure you, this is not true).
there is a good doc on this called the Killing Fields https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLz0eIihcY
What about you guys, who gets your vote?
I think human life should be valued above all, so based solely on "body count" that would be Mao Zedong at 40-80 million of his own people killed (more than Stalin and Hitler combined).
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insane to think of the levels of destruction one person can be capable of
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I went to the prison and one of the main killing fields in Cambodia. It's hard to put into words how horrific those years were for the Cambodian people. The perpetrators never even really faced just for those atrocities.
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that's crazy, how long were you in for? what was it like on the ground when he banned money? (this might be an interesting topic for a post in economics ), i don't think there's many people that could say they experienced something similar
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haha oh god sorry I realize now I wasn't clear in how I wrote that. I meant I visited the prison. It is called S-21 outside of Phnom Penh and has been a museum now since 1980.
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ha, i did think it was a stretch , but you never know who you have on SN :p
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Hahaha I was also like 😱 shit, that friend is a survivor
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i was ready for the story of a lifetime lol
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I see hahaha 😂
If this were reddit, all the rop comments would be Trump. 🤣
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they would and they'd also be orgasming over Mao !
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What's rop?
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*top
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Oh. Of course. Agreed.
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Nicolás Maduro
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I thought that too because I am Venezuelan but I said no, I am not going to say that because legally he is not the worst, yes he is one of the worst currently but in the history of our country he is obviously the worst but in world history he is not the worst.
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I think it's Mao, by a fairly comfortable margin over Stalin.
The scope of their devastation is incomprehensible. Mao killed more people and impoverished them more greatly, though.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that a functioning society was left behind. By the end of Mao's reign China was reduced to the poorest place on the planet, after millennia of being one of the most prosperous societies.
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i would put Mao above Stalin also, he also gets a notable mention for ridiculous nonsense like the sparrow killing.
any idea how his legacy is being taught in China now? Stalin is getting a bit of a revival in Russia now and the Memorial (in charge of commemorating victims of Soviet repression ) was officially dissolved in 2022 by the Russian Supreme Court.
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I don't know in great detail, but it seems like he's a complicated figure for them.
There are certain aspects they don't talk about, and he's still revered for driving the western powers out of China, but he's also recognized as someone who basically destroyed the country.
I think they try to talk about Mao in a mostly positive light, but then also talk about how great the post-Mao reforms were.
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too bad we don't have any Chinese stackers to weigh in
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Maybe @gnilma has some insights.
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482 sats \ 2 replies \ @gnilma 31 Jan
Thanks for tagging me. I'm not familiar with Stalin, but as a Chinese immigrant born in China and received elementary public education for 2.5 years, I can definitely share some personal experience and insight.
Let's start by saying that Mao is a mother fucker. I don't know how many millions he killed with the Great Leap Forward, but my dad still talks about the days of famine when he was young. We are from the south, Guangzhou. During those days, my grandfather would weigh the little rice he cooked each night so that everyone in the family has a portion to eat. Basically living on rations. They also mix yam into the rice because yam is easier to grow / cheaper. My dad still do not eat any yam at all to this day, because he said he ate too much of it back then. It is a surprise none of my uncles died during those dark days. My grandfather is a farmer, so I don't know if he stole some crops that he grew to keep the family alive. Those were not very good days in China.
Then just when people thought thing were getting better, the Cultural Revolution hit. I think the Cultural Revolution was just as bad, if not worse than the Great Leap Forward, because it turned people against each other. It promoted distrust, snitching, selfishness, and brought out the dark side of the whole population. I personally believe the Cultural Revolution was Mao's power move to eliminate possible threats in the CCP that can threaten his power and cement himself as supreme ruler. But in doing so, he not only killed many intellectuals and scientists in the country, but he also led the young generation down a foolish dark path of hubris and ignorance. My dad often says, the Cultural Revolution not only prevented China from advancing for 10 year, but it also pushed us back another 10 years. By the time the 10 years of revolution was over, we were not only 10 years behind, but actually 20 years.
I'm terms of how the country views Mao, I've been living in Canada since 1993, so I'm not too sure how he is being viewed these days within the country. But one thing is for certain, Mao is an integral part of the legacy of the party, so he is always protected and praised, at least to the public. To turn on Mao is turning on the party, and that cannot happen because the party is above all. There was also definitely propaganda in the elementary school text books in Chinese class to teach you to love Mao and to love the partty but that was from the early 90's as I immigrated to Canada in 93. I would assume the propaganda is still in the text books, although I cannot verify that.
But yea, privately, many Chinese (especially the ones that lived through Mao's reign) know and agree that Mao is a mother fucker, we just don't say it out loud.
Oh, and we know the post Mao reforms are all Deng Xiao Ping, who was brilliant and pulled China out from a shit storm. I still think he made the wrong call during 89, but I think his overall contribution to China was much more good than bad.
Which is also why I'm sad to see Xi trying so hard to fuck up the years of progress made by past greats. Anyways, sorry I'm going off topic. I'm going to stop my rambling and get back to work.
I think the worst has been the dictatorship imposed in Cuba. which remains in force for more than 50 years after it was implemented.
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32 sats \ 3 replies \ @ama 31 Jan
The ones who took a large proportion of Europe at once: Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco, with the most reactionary, dictatorial, criminal, and hateful ideas people can even have.
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i just finished a 7 part Real Dictators podcast on Mussolini, a lot of people think we wouldn't have a Hitler without Mussolini 'inspiring' him
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22 sats \ 1 reply \ @ama 31 Jan
The three of them supported and inspired each others, none would've probably had so much success without the others. That's why I mentioned them together, because they were all really the same movement to take the continent.
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true, it was an unholy trinity.
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Pol Pot
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard 7h
Mao for sure! Far behind the next would be Stalin.
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The Rothschild
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There are no worst dictator cause they kill for ideas, sex, culture, race, nothing...
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so would you say that, Hitler is no worse than, for example, Maduro?
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you do not understand what i mean... nethermind
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i simply disagree that not all are equally evil
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you want to compare a dictator vs a dictator.... so there is no point
if you have been in jail, tortured etc... by Maduro: for the person who lived it it was the worste if you have been in jail, tortured etc.... by Pinochet: for the person who lived it it was the worste
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Rothschild. Pick one.
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The Bolsheviks
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yeah but that was a group, since Lenin started that whole movement, would your vote to him?
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42 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 31 Jan
Yes
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The same people that write the fake news also write the history books, so it's impossible to know.
But, we can look at policies that shape the world to deduce who [they] were most afraid of, and there's not even a close second. Everything western states consider strategy since WW2 has been a reflection of their fear of Stalin.
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winners writing the history is a long theme, but let's be honest, Stalin was an absolute cunt and everything he achieved (IMO) could have been achieved without the use of gulags, secret police etc . I can and will say the same thing about all the top 5 dictators.
it;'s not about fake news, it's about who was a sociopath. Russia, not the West, denounced stalin for years afterward, it was a given that 'we must never repeat the cult of personality' and yet they;re doing it again.
now, i don't want to diminish the US or UK role in atrocities, it's just that there was rarely a personality cult there to call the shots, perhaps a cabal, but not one person.
still, who would you personally consider the worst dictator or tyrant, given whichever facts of sides you consider to be most true?
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I'm using the closest thing we have to an objective metric, Stalin clearly lives rent free in policy more than any other dictator throughout history.
How do we know who was the most sociopathic and committed the worst atrocities? I wasn't there, neither were you, we can only go based on narratives crafted by others over decades.
How else do we define worst? Body counts? Personal virtue signal against specific anecdotes? You might find that if you define the words carefully some unexpected names pop up, how many deaths is Churchill responsible for?
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it's really not that hard, historically, and from a humanistic perspective, body count is a good metric.
Stalin lives rent-free for a very, very good reason, and I'm speaking as someone who has lived in Russia for a decade and worked with source materials. I've heard all the pros and cons, ad nausea, shit, one of my ex's granddads was a KGB general.
simply saying, hey maybe Hitler was a great guy, but I wasn't there so I can't judge, IMO is fundamentally wrong, we have tons of sources and they can be studied. because actually, I can judge, i can read about the death camps, I can read the memoirs.
saying, oh but maybe Churchill was responsible for deaths is also valid, he was a colonialist 100%
and if you say Churchill was the worst, I would say ok, what's his body count and by what measure was he worse than Leppold the 2nd, or Hitler for example?
Bashing Western leaders is fine, but I would like to hear your arguments, in your view, as to who is the worst and by what metric.
I've listed mine, Pol Pot, I have also listed why I believe this to be so.
so who is yours and why (I don't mind if it's Kenndy or anyone, it's your personal option)
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It's not hard if you don't want to think, sure.
We can skip thinking and ask AI to use body counts of record as a percentage of population, nothing to discuss then... Nguema and Timur are up there with the ones you mentioned.
But if you want to think for a little bit, you ponder things like America's use of nukes on Japan just to keep Stalin from looking toward Asia or Europe's century long suicide after Churchill.
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ok, so who was , in your opinion the worst dictator? you keep using whatabotism, without sharing your personal opinion.
so was it the first one to drop a nuke? so Harry S. Truman.?
shall we also ignore all Japan's atrocities as well?
would you then be happy to make an argument as to why Harry S. Truman. was worse than Adolf?
and saying 'think a bit; isn't an argument, I've spend thousands of hours 'thinking a bit'