New thoughts on the leaderboard and rewards pool \ stacker news ~alter

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New thoughts on the leaderboard and rewards pool

232 sats \ 87 comments \ @DavidoftheDesert 26 Dec alter_native

I didn't want to admit it, because I was liking the "rewards" but...

@DarthCoin is 💯 right.

The leaderboard and rewards pool need to go. Or stacker isn't going to make it, long term.

This is clear to me now.

I wonder if the builders will change this before it's too late. 🤔

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142 sats \ 12 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

@Undisciplined, perhaps you should go to the current Assmilker post to give your argument there, too. It seems people just cannot understand both the game theory or the incentive system without a cogent explanation. To me, it looks like they are asking for the dissolution of SN through loss of participants because they are bellyaching about the proof of work rewards system.

132 sats \ 11 replies \ @Undisciplined 27 Dec

I'm tired of tilting at their windmills. I don't think Darth's sycophants are acting in good faith, so I'm done engaging with them.

26 sats \ 5 replies \ @Bell_curve 27 Dec

Do sycophants ever act in good faith?

51 sats \ 2 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

I think you would be hard put to find one that did. I think their good faith is invested in the object of their sycophancy. Unless you are the object, you may get short shrift.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

Depends on who you ask and how they might define these terms. Is someone who can shape-shift on command a psychopath or a gifted actor. There are clues everywhere. Some were deleted but it's still around. You will see the truth when you see it. Don't get blinded by the lights of that board. It took me a while to see through it.

What would you say, might be the object of desertdaves sycophancy?

22 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

OK. I think I understand what is going on with the board. See #826878 For more thoughts on the subject.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 27 Dec

Hmm, maybe not

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

You decide. Take a look my posts. Who am I really? It's all there.

@remindme in 3 months

61 sats \ 4 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

Yes, there is no use talking with someone that is blind and deaf. There is a saying, “When you see a crazy man is arguing with a drunk, how do you tell which is which?” Some people just blind and deafen themselves to any arguments because they ”know better”.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

I know better just like I knew better before..

I used to be super supportive of the team here. And I defended the ass milkers

And then I got new information.

For me, it's best to always consider new information and grow.

Everything you need is written on the wall. It might not be easy to see yet.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

It is difficult to stay out of the middle of the arguments between crazy and drunk people. It is, in fact, very hard on the person in the middle, too.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

Who's arguing and who's drunk do you think? I'm the craziest one for sure.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

That’s the whole problem, it’s real hard to tell who’s drunk and who’s crazy. Sometimes the drunks say they are crazy and sometimes the crazies say they are drunk.

177 sats \ 60 replies \ @Undisciplined 26 Dec

They'll probably need a better argument than either of you have presented.

42 sats \ 44 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

Here is an argument: Why should I post here instead of another social network? If I post here, I stand a chance of earning zaps of sats, don’t I? I don’t see that system any where else. It is unique as far as I can see. It draws my attention and perhaps yours, too. The leaderboard is a way to distribute rewards for work done, isn’t it?

SN needs to somehow attract new people and the only way to sell, as I have seen by experience is either greed or fear. When you have sats to distribute, maybe, just maybe, greed is the way to go. People just do not like fear, if they can avoid it. And, avoid it they will as well as SN.

Don’t you want a larger population to converse with?

42 sats \ 43 replies \ @Undisciplined 27 Dec

I think the leader board is a non-essential display of the rewards being paid out. An argument could probably be made that it's good for transparency.

From my perspective, we've been adding new people at a nice clip. I know the aggregate numbers don't show it, but most of the people I regularly interact with weren't here when I joined.

36 sats \ 42 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

Do you think that this could be because of the incentive system that has evolved on SN? I think transparency is a big help and a lot of people appreciate it. I just wonder how many would wander off to other pastures if there were no leaderboard? Do you think that it is part of the draw that SN has?

32 sats \ 41 replies \ @Undisciplined 27 Dec

We used to have the same (or at least very similar) rewards system, but no leader board to view it on.

I'm fairly agnostic about the leader board. Some people hate it, some people like it, I find it fairly interesting to observe.

I think the primary draw of stacker news is that people will actually talk to you about what you post and there's a good chance they will even be thoughtful. Earning rewards is certainly a draw, as well, but I think it's secondary. The two work together, though.

47 sats \ 40 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

Yes, they work together well. Could it be because of the people that SN attracts? I like observing the leaderboard, too. It gives some sort of clue on who is worthwhile conversing with.

33 sats \ 12 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

Maybe. The board is a at least a great guide on who to zap to climb the ranks. Ever notice how k00b commonly gets 1000+sats on his posts. I wonder why that is? Is it because he offers the best content by far? Maybe.

34 sats \ 3 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

Dave, are you making the case for what the others are calling assmilkers? I don’t think everybody can zap tons of sats out to lots of other people, especially for trash. Discernment plays a big part but so does the wealth factor. I think those that have lots of sats to give are probably giving them, while the rest of us are doing as we can.

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22 sats \ 7 replies \ @Undisciplined 27 Dec

These are completely valid points, but I would reframe them a bit.

Are k00b's posts the best by far? No. There are lots of great creators.

Are k00b's posts worth 1000 sats? Almost always.

That means others are being underzapped. Be the change and zap the other good creators. The rewards system incentivizes exactly that.

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31 sats \ 26 replies \ @Undisciplined 27 Dec

Could it be because of the people that SN attracts?

It certainly might. This comes up a lot when we talk about scaling SN. Are there a lot of other people who will "get it" or have we already found most of the high quality stackers?

I'm sure it's a little bit of both, but this might remain a somewhat small community, if it turns out that we're all just a bunch of weirdos.

45 sats \ 4 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 27 Dec

I would guess that there are a lot of other folks out there that would appreciate SN! They just, to this point, don’t know about it. That is the problem, how to inform people that are prospective clients. I think this is one of those things better left to word of mouth and a good incentive for bringing in new people. That is how I got into it.

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0 sats \ 20 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

Just depends on how long stackers are willing to stick around and be taken from. Maybe the devs will make a change and stacker can actually grow. Never know.

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22 sats \ 14 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

Probably. I have no good argument to make. I do feel I see it for what it is now. Not sure how to explain it. Darth explains it better.

I don't want stacker to be a game that favors the ones who have been around the longest. Doesn't seem right. V4V p2p zaps only, will give us free information.. less gaming.

799 sats \ 13 replies \ @Undisciplined 26 Dec

These are all separate issues, to me.

We can have a rewards system, without a leader board. That's what we had before MSM.

We have other leader boards that don't relate to rewards: top stacker, top zapper, etc.

Proof of work will always benefit those who have been around longer. That's how reputation works. The trust score is part of that and plays a role in keeping the system honest.

I really don't think you or Darth appreciate the game theory at play in these systems and why this incentive structure is so important. There are lots of other places where content can be zapped and none of them function as well as SN. That's not an accident. It's an outcome of the thought and care k00b put into designing SN.

26 sats \ 12 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

I really don't think you or Darth appreciate the game theory at play in these systems and why this incentive structure is so important.

This is definitely true for me. I don't know much. It's just a hunch.

What does stacker have that can't be accomplished on nostr long form with no territories and no centralized rewards and credit system?

302 sats \ 7 replies \ @Undisciplined 26 Dec

Without an incentive (reward) for zapping, people just freeride. No one zaps on nostr (essentially) and everyone zaps here (essentially).

There are many downstream effects of this.

I think the way we just scroll past stuff, on other platforms, is partially a result of not having an incentive (reward) for engaging with it.
When people aren't zapping, good content doesn't get elevated out of the noise, which makes it even harder to find good content.
Without zapping, people will stop paying to post
More importantly, without zapping, people will stop putting in the extra thought that currently goes into SN posts and comments.

The whole thing falls apart without the rewards system. If you think it's hard for newcomers now, the world without rewards would be so much more challenging (see nostr). Only people with established sycophantic followings would get zapped on their posts.

Perhaps not surprising, then, that the person who's been here the longest and has the most sycophantic following is leading this effort.

32 sats \ 6 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

Maybe once we scale considerably, this will change. Nostr is still tiny.

171 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined 26 Dec

Nostr is much larger than Stacker News

37 sats \ 4 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

Yes. and still small right? Do you think nostr has a future?

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178 sats \ 3 replies \ @stack_harder 26 Dec

nostr is a dead zone where nobody other than known faces in the btc world get any zaps. no incentive really to be there, SN is the only place where zaps flow both ways, every other thing i have seen to earn zaps, maybe apart from fountain, is just shit

36 sats \ 2 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

I can see that. I know that is one thing that attracted me here in the first place. People seem to actually zap. But are they liking my content actually or just gaming the board?

88 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 26 Dec

They are responding to incentives. You can choose to interpret that as "gaming" if you like, but the lack of zaps on nostr doesn't mean posts their are bad. That's also people responding to incentives.

Good systems yield good results. SN has better results (i.e. quality discussions), therefor it is a better system.

79 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 26 Dec

i tend to zap people that comment on my questions in general, just as a matter of habit, then if i see something extra funny etc, i zap a bit more. i think we all benefit in the end tho

142 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 26 Dec

I don't think the rewards pool should go but I am open to the idea of changing the way the pool is distributed and I would like SN to not have to fund the pool every day.

As for the leaderboard, I think it can go unless it is used as a way to promote something that is funding the rewards pool. If the leaderboard was brought to you by xyz and xyz was funding the pool 100k sats a day I would be cool with the leaderboard but currently it just has the largest boost for the last month at the top of the page and I don't think 30 days of visibility for a post in exchange for a 200k boost is a fair trade for SN.

75 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 26 Dec

There needs to be an incentive to zap, otherwise Stacker News' future would rely solely on charity and charity doesn't scale. If it did, the world would be a much better place, with no one starving, freezing, or dying from treatable diseases. While the incentives don't need to be financial, financial incentives are the most straightforward solution. See #770966 for further discussion.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 27 Dec

I know a few people who opted for donations instead of a wedding registry.

Donations were bare.

I told them take the gifts, sell them for money and give to charity

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

That makes sense. It still feels weird that just a few people make the rules of the whole thing.

Do you think nostr will continue to scale up?

73 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 26 Dec

Do you think nostr will continue to scale up?

Will there be more users next year? Sure.

Will there be more signal than noise next year? No, not with the current incentives.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

Interesting.

38 sats \ 0 replies \ @Cje95 27 Dec

I see what you say but as someone who doesn't post much if at all on weekends or during busy times of the week the argument of the first comers benefit falls by the wayside. My max Cowboy hat is 21 and that took hella effort. If you make quality posts and if you post in quality and common sense areas you can easily climb the rewards board.

I also get the feeling that they are going to keep working in it and nuking people who have been around for a longer and longer period. Those people who have been around longer as well tend to have more stats and a better standing to boost new people.

Anyway those are my two cents lol

11 sats \ 4 replies \ @jakoyoh629 26 Dec

Something weird is happening with the leaderboard. What do you need to do to get on it? I've spent over 400 sats and nothing. That's odd.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jakoyoh629 26 Dec

CC: @sn

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

I don't know how it works exactly. I am sometimes shocked I am on it and other times shocked I am not. 🤷‍♂️

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @jakoyoh629 26 Dec

I'm skeptical about witches, but it looks like they're a thing. Ahah! do you know anyone who knows about this? I'm kinda stuck.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 26 Dec

The developers do for sure.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DavidoftheDesert OP 27 Dec

I go into a little more depth here. #826731