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569 sats \ 32 comments \ @BallLightning 12 Dec lightning

Currently every lightning invoice contains the destination node public key. Since this key cannot be changed, if one invoice is linked to you, all the consecutive invoices can also be deduced to be generated by you and assumed that the payment is sent to you.

Is there any future development that will solve this problem? I know about blinded paths, but they seem not to work with the current wallets, they make invoices very long (qr codes may become unscanable on some screens), and they increase costs.

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40 sats \ 20 replies \ @DarthCoin 12 Dec

all the consecutive invoices can also be deduced to be generated by you and assumed that the payment is sent to you.

Nobody can stop you to spin up a new node anytime you want.

I've explained some scenarios here: https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/operating-with-ln-as-a-merchant

Using decoy nodes is a simple way until we will have new tools, like k00b mentioned PTLC. SCID mentioned by Justin is also a good option.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 13 Dec

The decoy nodes is an interesting idea. I wonder if it could be implemented as ephemeral lite nodes that proxy (mitm) the invoices with their own pubkey, speak a subset of the protocol for discovery, but otherwise act like full LN nodes to the external observer.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin 13 Dec

You have an example right on SN pinned posts #803740

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 13 Dec

I did look at this, and looks interesting, but that's not exactly what I meant. i was turned off by the discord thing, so didn't investigate further.

Exploring this idea more, I think its more about 'fake' nodes, eg: mitm nodes that front the traffic, analogous to domain fronting on CDNs. Rizful looks like temporary nodes, and I feel there is a bigger risk of losing funds will ephemeral full nodes, vs ephemeral fronting nodes that mitm the invoices.

Primarily, I don't want to have to create channels for the decoys. Ideally this would route to the 'real' destination via the decoy. I don't even know if this is possible!

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 13 Dec

I don't want to have to create channels for the decoys

Without channels how do you want to route private traffic? Think about private traffic as "noise" that cannot be distinguished from other traffic or routes.

If you do not want to use disposable or decoy nodes, then as @supertestnet said, use https://lnproxy.org/

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 13 Dec

Ah, we would need a private channel to route back from the decoy to the real node, and we would need the decoy with a valid public (or possibly private with hints) channel to handle the outer invoice. Ill think about this some more.

Maybe im looking for lnproxy.org like service I can spin up myself. No point using a 3rd party if I am trying to hide my true node pubkey.

31 sats \ 1 reply \ @supertestnet 13 Dec

Maybe im looking for lnproxy.org like service I can spin up myself

you can spin up lnproxy for yourself, it's free and open source software and there are two implementations:

Go implementation: https://github.com/lnproxy/lnproxy-relay

Dotnet implementation: https://github.com/nodlAndHodl/lnproxy

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ZezzebbulTheMysterious 13 Dec

Thanks, ill take a look this weekend.

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0 sats \ 12 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

I am skeptical that there will ever be total privacy, as long as everything is permanently recorded in a ledger of any type. Sooner, or later, all of the hashes and encryption can be broken. It just takes some time and Moore’s law put into effect.

76 sats \ 9 replies \ @supertestnet 12 Dec

I am skeptical that there will ever be total privacy, as long as everything is permanently recorded in a ledger of any type

thankfully, on lightning, payments are not permanently recorded on any ledger of any type

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

That makes it a target of the “law enforcement” arm of the government. They have to have their noses in everybody’s sh*t.

158 sats \ 3 replies \ @supertestnet 12 Dec

they may fire a thousand arrows from their highest tower but they will never take down all lightning nodes

the genie has left the bottle

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

Yeah, but they will sure try very hard. They are ruthless and do not give a sh*t.

6 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 12 Dec

Is simple:

defund them (use Bitcoin)
rebut their authority

For more you keep using fiat, more power you give them.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

Any escape from fiat is the road to freedom.

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20 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 12 Dec

Let them try. The thing is that not the gov is the biggest threat. Gov authority over your BTC can easily be rebutted. We have biggest problems than meaningless govs.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

Yes, bullets are cheap! For both parties. Just don’t let them get a look at the back of your head, might not be healthy. It looks like a lot of governments are collapsing at the moment. I fervently hope they all do and bring THEM down, too.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 12 Dec

They can shoot me, but will never have my sats. Same for you: if you are afraid of gov, why are you still using bitcoin? Nobody is forcing you to use bitcoin. Just go back to fiat and be an obedient shitizen. More sats for me.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

Good way to look at it. But they will get your gold dental work.

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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 12 Dec

Privacy will exist only when you separate your public stuff from private stuff. You cannot have privacy in a public place (internet). You cannot have privacy when you use your private identity in a public place. People must learn what is private and what is public and how to use them. https://livingintheprivate.blogspot.com/

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 12 Dec

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to separate yourself from your body and be in the public sphere. They will track your body. Just don’t carry a stupidphone.

37 sats \ 1 reply \ @justin_shocknet 12 Dec

If you're using LND you can just use scid aliases which spoofs that identifier

protocol.option-scid-alias=true

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 13 Dec

Why would it work? I just tried, and still see my node Pub Key when decoding an invoice at https://lightningdecoder.com

357 sats \ 1 reply \ @supertestnet 12 Dec

it's pretty easy to use "invoice wrapping" to hide your pubkey

https://lnproxy.org/ does this for free in a way that (1) any wallet can integrate (2) anyone can do it manually (by copy/pasting) even if your wallet doesn't support it

Some wallets support invoice wrapping natively, including Mutiny Wallet

You can also inject a "fake" pubkey into your lightning invoices -- Valet Wallet does this automatically, and there is also the trans lnd software that makes LND do this with every payment

200 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 12 Dec

it's pretty easy to use "invoice wrapping" to hide your pubkey

SN does this for p2p zaps. Also to your SN lightning address (or any "receive" type action) when enabled in your settings.

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @Butterfinger 12 Dec

Bolt12 will solve it

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 12 Dec

PTLCs but they're a long way off. Blinded paths are the best you're going to get for awhile afaik.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BallLightning OP 12 Dec

Don't PTLCs still require the destination public key to be in the invoice?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 12 Dec

I'm not sure actually. If it's source routed still and the path isn't blinded, I guess you would need the receiver's public key to be in there.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 12 Dec

There is literally a thread just above this one. #803740

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @whitewolf 13 Dec

This is not anymore true with bolt12, you should use it

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @aliceandthewonderland 13 Dec

I don’t know that much about LN, but isn’t ‘bolt 12 offer’ provide more privacy than ln invoice?