pull down to refresh
42 sats \ 24 replies \ @Undisciplined 10 Dec 2024
Minimum wage laws do actually have much more complex effects than other price ceilings.
However, you can count on pro-minimum wage authors to engage in empirical shenanigans to defend their claims.
reply
117 sats \ 3 replies \ @denlillaapan 10 Dec 2024
That literature is one hell of a shithole
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec 2024
Oooooohhhhh … noooooooo! I
t is the best the Keynesian’s/Marxist/Socialist/Communists can come up with. They will not admit that they are doing more damage to the people they are “trying to help” than they are improving their situations.
reply
14 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 10 Dec 2024
Dude, monopsonistic competition.
Gotta help the helpless little workers
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 10 Dec 2024
I'm intimately aware of that.
reply
38 sats \ 4 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec 2024
Minimum wages are a hurdle to jump rather than a floor to stand on. The true minimum wage is any wage someone is willing to work at. You get 100% employment.
reply
0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec 2024
Nonsense-
You get wage slaves and poverty...
Look at India and other third world economies where there is no minimum wage...and there is far from 100% employment.
reply
104 sats \ 2 replies \ @mrsu 10 Dec 2024
Third world countries like India or Nigeria also have moronic Kafkaesque rules for starting a business. This means many workers end up working for shady unregulated businesses instead.
Focus should be on sensible regulation to ensure workers are not mistreated, are able to keep what they earn and operate in a relatively safe environment.
Minimum wage rules just removes jobs from the economy that are the only jobs that some people are able to do. This is not helpful for poor people with low skills.
reply
24 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec 2024
Sensible regulation from the state? You are looking for a creature that does’t exist, like a unicorn. Everything the state does is for the benefit of the overlords or party princes or whatever you would like to call them.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec 2024
Sensible regulation that ensures workers are not mistreated includes a minimum wage- recognising the natural power imbalance that exists between low wage earning workers and their employers.
Show me where there is no minimum wage and workers are not mistreated...
Silence.
reply
52 sats \ 14 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec 2024
The most obvious consequence to me is always the pricing out of less skilled / proven workers. The young primarily but also those that may have impairments. Once it was pointed out to me I couldn't un-see it. Bugged me ever since.
I was at a community meeting in my very small unincorporated town a while back and there were government people from the county there asking about problems businesses in the area deal with. The first one that was brought up was the minimum wage making it more difficult to hire. Second was the increasing regulations they operate under as small businesses without HR/Accounting departments. When your company is you and your employees these things can have a massive impact.
reply
45 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec 2024
The one thing that rankles me about the minimum wage is the denial of people’s desires to work, when they can, but cannot clear the hurdle of marginal labor costs. They really do get left out of society that way and have no way of even getting on the ladder, let alone climbing it. However, unions love the minimum wage, it lets them campaign for much higher wages because of it.
reply
70 sats \ 12 replies \ @Undisciplined 10 Dec 2024
Amongst many other effects, minimum wages compress the wage scale: i.e. reduce the gap between entry-level and management wages. That reduces the incentive to perform well enough to earn a promotion.
reply
52 sats \ 10 replies \ @kepford OP 10 Dec 2024
Funny enough this came up at this same meeting. Guy runs a small auto parts shop. He has long time employees and the rise in the min/wage impacts his whole staff. He has no managers. He has guys that have worked there for years and the state just arbitrarily increased the floor of entry level hires which impacts those with experience.
The whole discussion about minimum wage reminds me why none of this stuff should be up to any politician or group of voters. There's a much more democratic way... the free market. The most democratic system ever that democrats try to destroy day after day. And republicans claim to defend but also sabotage.
reply
9 sats \ 9 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec 2024
An exceptional idea would be to have an amendment that is for “separation of economy and state”. That would include things like subsidies, minimum wages, price controls, government investments in industry (just look at the mess the “Green New Deal” has caused) and perhaps even social spending. These things all used to be handled efficiently at a local level on a voluntary basis.
reply
10 sats \ 7 replies \ @Undisciplined 10 Dec 2024
I think a lot could be accomplished by clarifying through legislation that Freedom of Association includes economic associations.
view all 7 replies
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec 2024
If I may interject in this merry miserly Libertarian circle jerk-
Minimum wage laws recognise the asymmetric power imbalance that often exists between workers and employers.
In addition to minimum wages do you also oppose unions and organised labour?
reply on another page
66 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 10 Dec 2024
Screwing with incentives is the worst outcome for any government interventions, like wages, banking and etc.
reply
0 sats \ 8 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec 2024
Minimum wage laws recognise the asymmetric power imbalance that often exists between workers and employers.
Raising the minimum wage increases the amount of money in the hands of the lowest paid citizens and thus substantially increases spending within the economy- this benefits both minimum wage workers and businesses that supply them with goods and services.
Opponents of minimum wages generally also favour tax cuts for the rich - the rich do not spend a significant portion of their incomes but instead re invest most of it to further enrich themselves- if this investment is in productive enterprise then this may benefit indirectly the wider economy but where these investments are into non productive assets like housing and real estate speculation they dont.
The majority of wealthy investment in western economies is into non productive real estate investment - solution? - Increase taxes on real estate speculation and increase the minimum wage.
reply
44 sats \ 7 replies \ @alt 10 Dec 2024
I disagree. It increases the amount of money in the hands of the lowest paid legally employed citizens. However, increasing minimum wage effectively prices out those whose skills and abilities are insufficient to earn that wage.
If I set minimum wage at $10 an hour, then anybody who is incapable of generating $10 an hour of value to an employer will not be employed. Thus, the increase in minimum wage decreases the amount of money in the hands of the lowest paid citizens, by making them unemployed.
reply
0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec 2024
You conveniently ignore the point that precedes the one you cherrypicked.
Minimum wage laws recognise the asymmetric power imbalance that often exists between workers and employers.
With no minimum employers will pay the least amount amount possible.
Look at economies where there is no minimum wage- like India- the result is wage slavery and chronic poverty.
reply
0 sats \ 5 replies \ @alt 10 Dec 2024
I ignored that point because its ultimately irrelevant.
Why would setting a minimum wage stop employers from paying the least amount possible? Or better yet, why does any employer pay more than the minimum wage?
Do you have any comment at all on the actual point I made, regarding the pricing out of less skilled workers who cannot generate enough value to make employing them at the minimum wage profitable?
Demonstrate a causal relationship between the lack of minimum wage in India and the poverty of that nation.
reply
0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 10 Dec 2024
It is not irrelevant only if you have zero concern for the well being of minimum wage workers who are generally not in a strong negotiating position- the young, the disabled the unskilled do not have strong bargaining power- thus minimum wage helps to provide a minimum level of income.
Why would setting a minimum wage stop employers from paying the least possible amount?- because that is precisely what a minimum wage can do! (do you have a problem with basic logic?)
Regarding the pricing out of workers I would reply those workers who are least able to provide value to the employer will be the first to be unemployed - with no minimum wage the employer will logically seek the most productive worker and pay the least amount that the supply of workers will accept- no minimum wage is a race to the bottom leading inevitable to poverty and exploitation.
For the young inexperienced and disable to gain employment would require a fully employed workforce and a shortage of more productive workers to already exist- this is best achieved by setting a minimum wage which results in low wage workers spending more into the economy stimulating the economy and driving higher employment- can you respond to this point?
Please name an example of where there is no minimum wage and where workers are not exploited? SILENCE.
reply
0 sats \ 3 replies \ @alt 11 Dec 2024
My friend, it is clear your heart is in the right place but that you really haven't actually thought through the logical consequences of setting a minimum wage.
There is no example in history of where price controls work. Price controls ALWAYS lead to shortages or surpluses of the relevant good.
Wages are merely the price of labour. Setting a minimum wage will lead to a surplus of labour, meaning labour that is not utilised. This is another way of saying unemployment.
This is a clear and unavoidable conclusion that you will reach if you follow through the basic logic.
view all 3 replies