Gift sats without losing them ✨ \ stacker news ~bitcoin

1320 sats \ 32 comments \ @juan 6 Oct 2022 bitcoin freebie

I'm looking for a team to join me building this for the Bolt 🔩 Fun's Legends of Lightning ⚡️ Tournament

https://makers.bolt.fun/story/looking-for-a-team-to-tackle-this-project--141

On-board nocoiners via tips without losing your sats.

Project Scope:

A web app that allows bitcoiners to tip nocoiners via the lightning network with a super lightweight on-ramp interface and user flow. Nocoiners can claim their sats by scanning a QR Code and validating their phone number, they can then withdraw their sats to their desired lightning wallet once they are educated. The web app will require the functionality of adding expiration dates set by the sender in case the user does not withdraw their sats they will be returned back to the sender.

Problem:

There is no quick and easy way to tip bitcoin to a nocoiner without teaching them how to download and set up a bitcoin lightning wallet. When someone gets tipped either at a restaurant or for any service provided there isn’t much time to be spent going through a whole lightning wallet onboarding process. Another concern is lost sats to nocoiners who might eventually lose access to their wallet access.

Solution:

A super lightweight onboarding ramp to send and receive bitcoin as tips for nocoincers. Send a tip and all the receiving user has to do is scan a QR Code, and open up a web app to claim the tip using their phone number via 2FA. The tip is set with a withdrawal expiration day, if it is not claimed or withdrawn within a set period of time the funds are refunded to the sender‘s wallet.

Sender user flow

Login via LN Wallet - (LNURL-auth)
Create Tip -
- Create a new shallow wallet
- Create LN invoice
- Set expiration time period
- Fund invoice
- Generate QR Code (Shallow wallet + funds to be claimed)
Sender Dashboard with tip redemption status
- Claimed
- Withdrawn
- Refunded

Receiver user flow

Scans QR Code
Opens up web app with the tip amount
Claims tip via Phone Number
2FA is sent for phone number verification
A shallow wallet is linked with a phone number
Show sats balance (currency balance) + redemption expiration countdown
Withdrawal functionality to lightning wallet

I am not a developer but have been working in Affiliate Marketing for 10+ years, I do product management as well so I have a technical understanding and I also know many ways to monetize users via affiliate programs.

I'd love to hear anyone's take on this if and if anyone is up for the challenge to help me tackle this would be amazing.

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210 sats \ 11 replies \ @rolznz 6 Oct 2022 freebie

As a very simple POC, lnbits with a couple of extensions could do most of the heavy lifting (creating user wallets by phone/email, eventual lnwithdraw link). Would need a simple PWA and backend to communicate with lnbits and manage the tips. I like the idea of giving someone a tip they can just scan with very little commitment and time and no knowledge of btc. I had this thought when I tipped my hairdresser the other day - I can’t be bothered investing the time so just tipped them in fiat

211 sats \ 6 replies \ @rolznz 6 Oct 2022 freebie

I could potentially help with the development side - let me know if you want to get in touch.

121 sats \ 3 replies \ @satorin 7 Oct 2022

This community is so awesome :)

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @juan OP 24 Oct 2022

It really is an amazing community 🧡

By the way, @rolznz ended up joining me on this venture! 😎

So we enrolled in the BOLT🔩FUN Legends of Lightning ⚡️ Tournament and we were able to recruit other mamebers to work on the project 🙂

You can follow our weekly updates here:

Week 1 - #82384 Wee 2 - #84937

Would love to hear any feedback you have.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @satorin 24 Oct 2022

Thanks for the update ! Will check it out.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 31 Oct 2022

just posted an update on week 3 of our progress #87590

Also just loaded 1000 sats for you to test it out yourself https://lgt.st/santorin

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @juan OP 7 Oct 2022

Amazing, let me know what’s the easiest way to connect!

I got in contact yesterday with someone at https://getalby.com he pitched it to the team and they liked the idea and can possibly help also with development, design and other things!

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @rolznz 7 Oct 2022 freebie

Cool! I’m on Twitter (same username) - you could send me a DM there.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @juan OP 7 Oct 2022

Yes that’s what I thought of the easiest way to get something working, I’ve played around with LNBits, those guys have been adding some amazing extensions for it, I just don’t have the full knowledge of honking up the API’s and what not.

And like you said, the whole idea of this is to be able to quickly tip or gift someone Sats but not have to invest the time to do a full onboarding and most importantly have the assurance of recovering those Sats in case the person does not show interest or initiative in learning more about what to do with them.

131 sats \ 2 replies \ @02c545170e 8 Oct 2022

Great idea. I second the idea of using lnbits. It can do most of what you're asking for. Also, no setup, per se, is required. Basically you can just spawn a sub account for the tipee and let them scan a QR code which brings them to that wallet. The mobile interface is very clean and easy and no install is required. I'd definitely start your POC with that approach and then see what if anything is missing. Likely you can implement a plugin to lnbits to fill in any gaps, or perhaps incorporate all of the onboarding functionality into a single new plugin for simplicity.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 24 Oct 2022

We're in week 2 of the BOLT🔩FUN Legends of Lightning ⚡️ Tournament and I'll be posting weekly updates here so everyone is also involved. 🙂

You can follow our weekly updates here:

Week 1 - #82384 Wee 2 - #84937

Would love to hear any feedback you have.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 8 Oct 2022

Completely agree, Ben Arc and contributors have done an amazing job building LNBits and its many extensions they have available!

244 sats \ 3 replies \ @rolznz 7 Oct 2022 freebie

I wonder if even requiring the user to input their phone number is too much commitment required (and concerns about privacy). Also it requires a non-btc user to remember a random website name later in order to retrieve these sats. Maybe there is a simpler way?

200 sats \ 1 reply \ @satorin 7 Oct 2022

Yep, good point(s). I think the question is how much privacy when - e.g. if you push phone number requirement / verification all the way to later stage (e.g. transfer or redemption), it would make the onboarding significantly smoother.

I'm sure @juan has thought through these points. As a receiver, I may be reluctant to give up my phone number for [insert rational $ amount] in tips.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 7 Oct 2022

Yes all good and valid points, user privacy will have to be top of mind!

The problem that I see with doing the number requirement / verification at a later stage like withdrawing the funds, goes in line with the point that @rolznz brought up, that not many people will remember the url of the site where they can claim their tips/gift.

So my reasoning for phone number verification is to remove the burden of creating an account with a user name or email address and provide the experience to the user of claiming the funds and know they can recover them anytime using their phone number.

Also with phone verification there will be direct line of communication via sms to do the initial light on-boarding and be able to send reminders about funds expiring. So if someone gifts me Sats I scan the QR Code verify my phone number I get an initial sms with a 2FA to get access to the funds and in case I close the website and I don’t remember the URL, I can always reference back the initial sms to click the link and gain access again.

I really appreciate all the interaction with this, all questions and concerns are only going to shape the idea in the right direction!

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 7 Oct 2022

I know and most of us who have already been orange pilled are more conscious about privacy that no coiners, that’s the reason why I want to use LNURL-with for bitcoiners to sign in with their LN wallet and keep it as anonymous on that side, but for the receiver the simplest way I have thought of so far would be via phone number and sms.

If you think about it majority of no-coiners enter their phone numbers in many places like signing up to rewards programs and to enroll to all sorts of other things, so I’m thinking this might be the easiest way to go about it.

Also the reason I’m thinking sms is so they don’t have to remember a random url, they will have the welcome sms with a link to their temporary wallet until they withdraw their funds, also if the tip/gift has an expiration date then we’ll most then likely need to send reminders via sms to the user to encourage them to withdraw their funds to their own LN wallet, sms is a very good direct line of communication, just need to make sure that it does not get abused when it comes to user privacy.

200 sats \ 2 replies \ @satorin 6 Oct 2022 freebie

[Cont'd]

I have gifted hardware wallet to no-coiners before, but was actually more marketing the NFC-based hardware device itself to no-coiners, and not on-ramping.

Depending on the gifting budget. I think sats equiv of less than $10 would be tough to justify via OD or other hardware devices.

Thanks @grgr :)

294 sats \ 1 reply \ @juan OP 6 Oct 2022 freebie

I think he just meant to say that he’s gifted OD before but like you said it’s not a scalable way of doing it and you still have ti di some sort of on-boarding.

What I want to build is a very lightweight web app where can I find a LN invoice, it creates a custodial wallet and show the person I want to gift the Sats to a QR Code that will redirect them to the landing page where they claim the gift using their phone number, I want to do it the easiest way so I think a simple 2FA via sms would be the easiest.. Once the user claims their gift they have an x period of time to withdrawal their Sats to their own wallet.

The whole trick is delaying the on-birding process from when the Sats are gifted to when they feel comfortable and ready to withdrawal.

It would need to heavily focus on simple onboarding flows and show different ways the user can do with their Sats, for example withdraw to a LN wallet, or buy gift cards on bitrefill, donate some Sats to someone or an organization, pretty much showing real-life use case scenarios that way the user can understand first hand what the capabilities are.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @satorin 7 Oct 2022

I see, thanks for the clarification.

202 sats \ 3 replies \ @zman 6 Oct 2022

how's this different compared to ln.cash ?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @juan OP 6 Oct 2022

With ln.cash you need to already have an LN Wallet to claim, so this is someone that already is somewhat aware of what the lightning network is.

I want to be one step before this, where the user doesn’t necessarily need to have a LN wallet to claim the gift/tips.

My making them claim it even if it’s just with their phone number they will have a better sense of ownership and again the whole point is to delay the on-boarding process from when you gift the Sats to them claiming it and start exploring things they can do in their own terms, if they are interested in learning, if not the Sats are returned back to the sender eliminating them getting lost forever.

500 sats \ 1 reply \ @zman 14 Oct 2022

I think you're just creating a new custodial service that holds the funds tied to phone number instead of ln.cash tied to some voucher ID. Maybe you can talk to ln.cash to add support for phone numbers instead.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 14 Oct 2022

Correct, it will turn into a custodial wallet to hold the tips/gifts for a temporary moment until the user is self-onboarded.

We’re exploring different options besides having it tied to their phone number, we are adding email and allow them to login via a magic link.

But again this approach is slight different from ln.cash, if were to tip my waiter/waitress and if I use ln.cash I would have to ask them to first download a lightning wallet to claim the tip/gift and this is exactly what we’re trying to solve, not having to onboard the person right on the spot.

Also let’s say if I do get them to download a wallet, they claim the funds and I go about my day.. The person may or may not have the initiative or access to education to continue their learning journey on what they can do with those Sats they just received on their wallet.

So our approach is, fund a wallet, have the user claim the funds without a LN wallet until we (the temporary custodial) wallet teach them in bits about things they can do with those Sats.

Obviously the first would be to download a wallet so they can withdraw their funds, but we have to come up with real use case scenarios where the user can experience first hand and make a connection with what bitcoin can be used for. So for example we can provide a tutorial on how to fund a virtual Visa card to spend either online or at a physical store.

Our main focus will come down to easy onboarding education so when the user withdraws their funds from our web app they will have the confidence and understanding of endless possibilities and hopefully from there we can inspire some curiosity to learn more about bitcoin 🧡

101 sats \ 3 replies \ @grgr 6 Oct 2022

I would use such a product. A few years ago I wanted to gift some sats to my brother, who is not a techie, let alone a coiner. The best thing with which I was able to execute it and actually transfer ownership without him having a wallet at the ready (when gift was given) seemd to be opendime. Of course teaching him how the use the sats from that had quite a learning curve. What you describe is what I was searching for at the time, but could not find anything that would be simple enough and aimed at nocoiners.

200 sats \ 0 replies \ @satorin 6 Oct 2022 freebie

You mean gifting them (physically passing) a hardware wallet such as OD with sats pre-loaded?

I like the out-of-box thinking, but I think scalability is an issue, and hardware cost could be another.

294 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 6 Oct 2022 freebie

It’s also been my experience, I’ve gifted two open dimes with a big QR Code so they can scan and see their balance but I know that once they want to withdraw those Sats I will need to sit down and explain how this all works.

The goal on this project would be to simplify it as much possible that’s why im thinking just have them claim with a phone number without having to set a wallet just yet, but the real work comes in trying to educate and onboard them after they have claimed the tip.

A lot of the times you need to guide the user with real-life examples of what they can do with those Sats, the onboarding could have tutorials on where to spend them, how to save them to your own wallet or even how to donate them to someone else.

All of this with the safety net that if I’m gifting let’s say 100k Sats to someone I feel safe that either they have taken the initiative to learn more and understand on their own or if not I will get those 100k Sats back to my wallet.

Thanks for your input and validating that this is something you were looking for at some point. 😃

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @juan OP 24 Oct 2022

In case you want to follow our progress in the BOLT🔩FUN Legends of Lightning ⚡️ Tournament 🙂

You can follow our weekly updates here:

Week 1 - #82384 Wee 2 - #84937

Would love to hear any feedback you have.

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @bitcointerest 11 Oct 2022

I'm not a software developer but I do have some logo design experience. If you need to create an identity for your brand, let me know. More than happy to assist in my own little way.

2 sats \ 3 replies \ @juan OP 11 Oct 2022

Hey! Absolutely, what to connect and talk more about it?

I also enrolled to this event https://event.bitcoin.design/ which also helps with design!

Definitely open to it!

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @bitcointerest 11 Oct 2022

Definitely. You can dm me on Twitter @bitcointerest whenever you're ready.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @juan OP 11 Oct 2022

I just followed you, I don’t see a way to message you though!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitcointerest 11 Oct 2022

Not sure why you couldn't send me a message but I sent you one. Followed you back as well.