There Is No Paper Bitcoin \ stacker news ~bitcoin

There Is No Paper Bitcoin youtu.be/ZPqo1tSyAyk?si=PpKZbbnu2yivgPaH

764 sats \ 30 comments \ @siggy47 28 Oct bitcoin

I posted this video because I had a discussion the other night at a bitcoin meetup about whether BlackRock and the other ETF sponsors are in fact creating paper bitcoin. It is a controversial subject. I would like to think it's not happening, but my instincts tell me otherwise.

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129 sats \ 8 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Oct

Necessary reminder what bullshit you are watching:

siggy... why do you waste your time with crap like this? Just walking your dog and will be much useful than watching this garbage guy.

60 sats \ 7 replies \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

I think it's important to explain to people who come from Wall Street backgrounds why self custody of actual bitcoin is important. A lot of investors who have been buying stocks for years at first think bitcoin is just another asset. They need to understand the difference, and why ETFs are NOT real bitcoin.

48 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Oct

Don't take my words towards you personally, is just a general comment towards these banksters. I know you post this video, just to start a conversation around it.

105 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

Don't worry, I know you have a big heart behind that dark mask!

I know how you take care of struggling people trying to feed their families in poor areas.

The secret is out.

64 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave 28 Oct

Stuff like this gets me excited in a way. Reminds me how early we are and how very few actually see what is happening.

53 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Oct

people who come from Wall Street backgrounds

sincerely FUCK'EM'ALL, for me they are not different than any bankster. Think about this: more sats for you siggy.... let them eat shit if they want to play with shit. Why would I teach those motherfuckers how to self-custody? They deserve to stay in darkness and ignorance. Bitcoin self-custody is only for the brave!

Always remember my warning:

unfortunately this warning always became true

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @79c9095526 28 Oct

100% agree with you @DarthCoin

I've followed Fred (unfortunately) since earlier this year when he was telling people he would sell over 50% of his bitcoin in order to buy ETF products instead because of how much he trusted it.

It is a disservice to the bitcoin mission to have people like this advocating for owning pieces of paper IOUs from the corrupt fiat system that bitcoin was made to save us from.

I also watched his video (linked by OP). He makes no argument for there not being paper bitcoin other than, trust me bro. That is it. His entire video is that people like blackrock are too big and too reputable to play games and since they are regulated, of course they will do what they are supposed to.

Search online for how many times blackrock and other wall st banks have been fined by regulators for not doing what they were supposed to do. Now multiply that by 100 because 99/100 times they don't get caught criming.

I have no proof that there is paper bitcoin. But to state there is no paper bitcoin without something like proof of reserves at a minimum (which also doesn't necessarily prove no paper as it doesn't account for liabilities) is simply bullshit.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

I see your point, but I think left unchecked guys like Saylor become heroes, and then he starts mocking self custody. The NGUers just want Lambos until they hang around for a while.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 28 Oct

They became heroes because too many damn people are giving them attention. Too many damn influecenrs and podcasters inviting them to talk. Why? Let them die in their ignorance, make them insignificant.

64 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 28 Oct

I can agree and I'm against spending Bitcoin because when you spend at a store, the store sells it and BlackRock or Fidelity or Microstrategy buys it.

I can only say that it's real, they are and they'll be trying hard to convert it into paper.

64 sats \ 2 replies \ @Satosora 28 Oct

This is exactly what l fear. So how will they ever have the assets to back up the rising price? All the people with 401ks that are investing in bitcoin in this way...they are in for a surprise.

140 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

Exactly. What I don't understand about guys like Kreuger is that this has already happened on the gold markets, with the silent support of big banks.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-jp-morgan-precious-metals-traders-sentenced-prison

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 28 Oct

The banks are scrambling to get some kind of control. They are willing to do anything to keep it.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @DesertDave 28 Oct

What if my seed phrase is written on paper?

43 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 28 Oct

I don't know if the ETFs have paper bitcoin. None of us do. It's possible, but I doubt it. There is little reason for them to do this at this point. They are making money on fees in some cases and in others they are just trying to grab market share(investors).

We now know that FTX was a paper tiger though. Big difference between the two. Regulation. The regulators would love to hurt bitcoin and I suspect they would nail any ETF custodian trying to do this. Not out of love for bitcoin or bitcoiners but because it would be bad for bitcoin perception in the minds of normies.

I don't think paper bitcoin is the risk with ETFs. The risk is state control over these ETF. Closing them or taking the coins. So don't think I am saying the ETFs are a good option. They have the same risks as stocks and other tradfi assets. They are old tools for the old system.

IMO it is far more likely exchanges are creating paper bitcoin. They have note to gain and less to lose.

And for those people on SN with problems with complex topics. I don't trust the state or Blackrock. This is just my view of the game theory and tradeoffs.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 28 Oct

Here's another reason I don't think they are doing paper bitcoin. It would be far easier for them to do other paper assets. There are already people monitoring the ETFs on chain. It would be easier to spot than an ETF doing paper gold.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 28 Oct

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, these institutions have risk of being caught off-sides due to how slow their legacy settlement systems move, and counter-party risk. Given the leverage built-in to the system this is tantamount to paper Bitcoin.

This recent amendment basically confirms that Blackrock themselves is concerned about paper Bitcoin re: Coinbase

Institutional custody is a trade-off like everything else, and as sad as it is to say, most "self-custody" solutions getting shilled are much worse. Just like the privacy larps who promote all kinds of backdoored or overtly retarded things, there's lots of virtue signaling around self-custody with little technical comprehension to back it up.

Optionality is what matters. The few who self-custody keep the institutions honest for those who don't. This includes other institutions, Blackrock as mentioned above is the perfect check-and-balance on Coinbase... Fidelity on Blackrock... and so on.

Bitcoin is Numéraire, and as such all these institutions (and soon other countries) are in a Mexican standoff that keeps the supply in-check even if schmuck's like Krueger are the norm.

43 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby 28 Oct

I don’t think etfs are creating paper bitcoin but I do think coinbase is. I suspect if there was a run on coinbase they wouldn’t have the Bitcoin they claim to hold to fulfill it.

20 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

You mean their trusted custodian?😀💯 agree

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 28 Oct

I wonder if these instances of coinbase seemingly always going down when Bitcoin is rallying aggressively has more to do with their risk modelling than the volume. They probably have a threshold of how much bitcoin liabilities they can have compared to their assets and when it is ripping and people are buying like crazy it triggers something and slows down exchange.

There’s a conspiracy theory for you.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @BitcoinIsTheFuture 28 Oct

It really comes down to don’t trust, verify and I don’t believe that world exists with ETF’s, plus they are easily seizable by the government.

43 sats \ 2 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 28 Oct

Without watching the video, I can say with certainty that it's a paper bitcoin. The reason is simple: users can't transfer the bitcoins.

55 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

Yes, in that respect it's clear. What the video is talking about is different, though. Before bitcoin, the gold market has for years been accused (with plenty of evidence) of creating "paper gold" , in the form of IOUs, to manipulate the price of gold. Many people in bitcoin, including me, believe that these ETFs, along with their derivatives, can do the same thing. Kreuger disagrees and sets forth his reason's why.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 28 Oct

Got it! The derivatives market is so murky, it's almost impossible to see what's really going on. But if Bitcoin reserves are always transparent on the blockchain, maybe he's onto something. However, I highly doubt you could do the same for all derivatives.

43 sats \ 4 replies \ @south_korea_ln 28 Oct

Curious, in your opinion, do you think this guy is a net positive to Bitcoin?

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 28 Oct

I follow him on X

He has insight occasionally

84 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 28 Oct

I posted this because he's my devil's advocate here. That's a good question. I feel like I am so biased against Wall Street involvement and the ETFs that I can't be objective. I have despised Larry Fink for years, and in fact IMO reacting against guys like him is why bitcoin exists to begin with. I don't really like this Kreuger guy, nor all the Giovanni power law crap, but maybe it's good for bitcoin thinking about game theory. It provides protection against extreme regulatory crackdown because guys like Fink control the regulators?

64 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 28 Oct

Ok, thanks for elaborating. We're pretty much on the same page then.

I think these few guys also rub me the wrong way because they invoke their former academic credentials (MIT, PhD, etc) and use it as an argument of authority to back their mathematically meaningless models (power law, etc). Grifters that will be washed out, hopefully, when people realize the future cannot be predicted based on past behavior. Happy I got rid of Twitter once more, almost forgot about him.

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 28 Oct

I often disagree with Krueger but his perspective is useful to folks unfamiliar with the world of Wall Street

edit: I forgot to mention Krueger has been skeptical of MSTR, which makes him an object of contempt from Saylor fans.

Disclosure: I own shares of MSTR (Roth IRA)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiracDelta 28 Oct

I don't care about what that retard says and I am not watching it.

It is simply obviously literally true that there is no paper bitcoin, by definition. All the bitcoin exist in reality. Whatever things men say amongst themselves is just tawk -- what people say they will do doesn't matter, there is only reality. Why would you care about all the tawk? Bitcoin doesn't know what anyone "promises" or "threatens" and keeps working regardless.