Over the past two years since I first started using lightning, I've gone from mainly sending payments from exchanges or my own wallets to myself, to thousands of transactions logged on just my own node let alone the countless wallets I've used along the way.
Be it micro payments for a Nostr shitpost, purchasing artwork from an npub I admire, mitigating disorganized utxo sets by giving me a threshold to build before withdrawal on chain, integration with cashu mints, or tips on SN.
Anytime I read or hear the recurring cries of Bitcoin can't scale or no one is using it for payments hasn't had my, or likely many of you here, experience with lightning. It may be complicated in many ways under the hood, and I've had my various hiccups along the way, but it has completely changed the way I interact with Bitcoin.
It's scaled my use and habits, and I'm more willing to spend some sats since the flexibility it has given me has basically simplified the process to the tap of an icon on many occasions.
It all really began here with the integrated wallet. So I suppose without that small jumping off point, I may still be ignorant of all the things being built and the improvements that happen outside of my scope.
Yea "layer 2" is the new "blockchain" and so fud is used to shill fake layer 2 scams, just as bitcoin fud was for shitcoin scams
Lightning scales beyond the needs anyone can see, a billion channels a year is more than enough. Some people will always just complain because they don't actually want to use Bitcoin, they want a database.
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The volume of payments that's possible as it continues to grow and even now is insane. And yeah maybe not everyone runs their own node, or opens a channel with an LSP, and instead uses more custodial solutions, but being basically tech illiterate, and getting to that point, has been a ride.
Plus who the hell knows how or what else gets implement or it plugs in to. Boggles my feeble mind.
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Exactly, a billion a year times infinity...
Nodes are appliances, they'll be shared by families and small orgs: Lightning.Pub
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Stacker.news made me understand! It was my first time sending sats to others without using a utxo :)
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Once you realize that ease and freedom... No going back.
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131 sats \ 1 reply \ @Satosora 11 Oct
Bitcoin will dominate the future as people become more comfortable with it.
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Every time I use it, it works perfectly
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I only really have occasional problems with NWC, otherwise it works remarkably well. Even running through Tor.
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11 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 12 Oct
Can you tell me more about your problems with NWC? Are you using it with SN?
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No, currently just using the built in wallet for SN, mainly problems on Nostr... I think it's generally just communication problems between wallet providers sometimes... Or VPN... Or relay problems. Usually works perfectly, sometimes get failed payments. Been working better since I linked my own node and Alby Hub. I dunno.
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So good
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You have been busy with the memes today!
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memes is life and life is a meme
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No memes no life. Only numb sadness and melancholy.
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It's been a process and a journey. Yet I am far from finished.
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51 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 12 Oct
I like the post but not the clickbait title
Wrapping the title in quotes would have been much better
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I'll keep it in mind. I'm not really cut out for... Any social internet activity.
Mainly why I disappeared from here for a year. I suck at it.
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I think bitcoin And lightning are both exactly where they need to be.
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I'm just riding the tides.
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You are right where you should be too. 💚
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I'm super grateful for those who maintain and build on Bitcoin. My purpose isn't related to figuring anybody that stuff out. But I sure do have a good feeling.
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I wish I understood more than basic machine G-code.
If the infrastructure and UI wasn't there I'd be done for.
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @ravener 11 Oct
Yeah, lightning amazed me, after testing Bitcoin as a payment for the first time long before I knew about Lightning, I wondered, does anyone really use bitcoin for payments? slow confirmation times, and high fees.
Stacker News was my introduction to lightning and I learned so much after joining here, and everything feels a lot better now.
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Pretty much same for me, I took a long sabbatical from SN but it's what lit the match. I was already obsessed with Bitcoin, and glad I learned all I have before that, but everything clicked the more I used lightning, and realized how much fluidity it gave my movement of sats.
I can transcend applications, to Nostr to SN to my node to Alby to boltz to on chain to a cashu mint or liquid swap (while I'm heavily iffy on those) to cashapp for a friend who doesn't have another app other than that. NWC... It's just streamlined so much and made me much more of an active user.
Long winded way to say, it's been great.
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About 7 transactions per second on bitcoin, is it? 7 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365 = 220752000 So about 220 million transactions per year.
If you're thinking about bitcoin as the savings account and lightning as the checking account you'll soon notice that the lightning situation as it exists today is probably not a feasible way on its own to scale bitcoin.
Let's illustrate: say you want to move funds between checking and savings once a month. You'll need at least 12 on chain transactions per year to do this. With this kind of usage fewer than 20 million people could use bitcoin.
The 220 million number ought raise some concerns knowing that there's 8 billion people. If transactions are equally distributed that gives each person one transaction every 36 years.
This is not about FUD. It's about realism. I think things like Fedimint are the future of scaling.
Maybe some new type of compression or very efficient use of blockspace will allow the bitcoin savings, lightning checking account model to work but it's not feasible for large scale adoption with the current state of the tech, Not by a long shot.
I remember Saif (bitcoiner economist and author Saifedean Ammous) imagining a situation where lightning operators come to function like banks, servicing many people. There will still be trust involved but the foundation of the monetary system will be non-inflationary. I think that's realistic and it's a win that can hardly be overstated.
If the tech folks figure out ways to build out fully cypherpunk-approved ways of scaling bitcoin where each individual maintains full self-custody etc all the better but a situation that functions much like the one currently existing, minus the inflation; that's still a vast vast vast vast huge tremendously ginormous improvement over the fiat disaster that's been unfolding the last couple of hundred years and accelerating in recent decades.
That's my two sats.
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I agree the scaling situation is still unfeasible for every person on earth to interact on chain, open a self custody LN channel, let alone even a minority, in fact I agree with pretty much everything you said. Even if nothing changes this is still a vast improvement, and lightning does indeed help scale far beyond what on chain does.
I guess as someone who really can't contribute in any meaningful way to alleviating these issues, things have improved during the time I've been messing around. Maybe part of it is just getting more adept at finding the ways in which lighting helps improve my experience with using Bitcoin.
Either way I don't take your reply as FUD, it's honestly in line with a lot of how I approach thinking of this.
Yeah. Trade offs still enable a lot of room for scaling based on personal criteria, competence or needs, it's got limitations and it's perhaps still in development and progressing very cautiously, but it's still infinitely superior to fiat.
Sorry if none of that made sense. I ramble.
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An overwhelming number of people saying that 'bitcoin isn't used for payments'... and that 'it can't scale'...
Are trying to sell you a token.
NOONE who gives lightning an honest try, putting it into context with other early technologies, again if they make a decent effort, will complain about it. It is efficient, cheap to use and very fast.
If bitcoin has lightning and 'it scales' and is 'easy to use' and is reasonably private for most people then there is zero need for altcoins. They go away. So the people who say that lightning can't work are those with some random token to sell. If Bitcoin already scales (which it does) through lightning then there is no need for their token. None.
Lightning actually works for sending and receiving money, and it is a really integral and important part of the Bitcoin ecosystem. It totally changes the perspective of Bitcoin, in my opinion, and scales really well. Don't listen to nonsense.
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Haven't listened to it at all other than mainly detractors on Nostr who claim it's too complicated, which if you have no reference of base layer functions and how lightning integrates I could see the frustrations some would run into. Or they then become monero shills due 'lack of privacy' as an addition.
It's more just me saying that in the time I've spent using it and put into backending all my infrastructures as best I could... I'm convinced we haven't seen anything yet.
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Lightning is better money, with virtually no fees, instant and at the speed of light. We can only dream as to all the ways this can be integrated with online content, commerce, spending, and website microtransactions.
Bitcoin with lightning, imo, is the complete package. Be careful of which voices you listen to... it is not that complicated and the success of lightning means altcoins fall further behind (and they're already irrelevant).
Are there issues with Bitcoin's privacy? Yes sure. But i believe those can be overcome with a little imagination. And let's be honest, any nation state or significant government 'looking for someone' online will ultimately find them regardless of which blockchain they're transacting on. The goal should be reasonable privacy for most people, not hiding like Ed Snowden which is way, way, way more complicated than most people give credit for.
Just my 2 sats
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @drlh 12 Oct
And let's be honest, any nation state or significant government 'looking for someone' online will ultimately find them regardless of which blockchain they're transacting on.
Even regardless using any blockchain at all if they send data themselves using facebook, insta, shindows or other EULA and privacy policy of nightmare.
Btw in russia now you can register to government services with biometry.
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Very true. I feel like some of the privacy-coin people, although they have good intentions, are living a fantasy.
One slip-up, one mistake, and a governmental actor can find someone trying to 'hide' on the internet. Privacy is the lowest of the on-chain or off-chain privacy presented. If you order something online and have it shipped to your house, how private is it?
If you buy gas for your car - the car probably has a license plate? There are cameras out in public? The moment you made the transaction (ie with the 'privacy coin') your face was visible on camera... so how big is the anonymity set?
With current ring signatures of 16 (16 right?) and your face on camera with your license plate showing, how many other people were buying that exact amount at that exact time? How large is the actual anonymity set?
Also, how do you stand around and wait for more confirmations, even just a few minutes when there are people around you, not paying in cryptocurrency?
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Agreed. It's all surface level arguments.
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Wasn’t there a dev who came out early last year or so and declared lightning fundamentally broken? I did not know enough to understand the criticism but whatever happened to that person and their argument? Whatever they were claiming it hasn’t seemed to slow down lightning whatsoever.
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I remember this. Can't remember the name of the dev or what it was specifically. A fatal flaw of some sort. He probably knows more than me. The message seemed more urgent at the time than the eventual outcome. Chances are others know more than him.
Kind of like that 2106 or whatever bug that supposedly needs a hard fork to fix... Out of my league.
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220 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 12 Oct
I think you guys are talking about @benthecarman and what he mentioned in #379225 is still relevant. Lightning works but it’s not flawless.
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Yes this was it, thank you.
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Although it may have actually been this I was trying to think of
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Thank you
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Thanks for sharing the I’m fairly similar. We are early and much will be built to make bitcoin simpler to use for the masses. Onward!
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There's so much going on but it's easy to miss all the cool stuff happening.
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It works so well that I'm planning to go full in, 24/7, building a revenue stream on Bitcoin and whatever can be converted into that only.
This is what I'll try to achieve: #669330
Will I need to plug fiat into this project? Maybe, but I'll do that only after getting as far on Bitcoin, Lightning, Nostr, SN and similar platforms!
Soon I'll hop on a plane again, then I'll be Rebel Nomad for real ;-)
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Onward 🫡
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Hell yeah!
When you're at sea sailing you'll normally steer into the storm ;-)
I miss that, but if Bitcoin does what we all think I might roam around in the Med maybe next year!
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The speculative focus creates high volatility, making cryptocurrencies adoption risks for ordinary people, and practically impossible for routine transactions. Maybe El Salvador is an experiment where we can see how things will go over time
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