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The Whipping Boy of Modern Culture - CAPITALISM
1024 sats \ 65 comments \ @kepford 25 Sep bitcoin
It's hip to blame almost every modern ill on "capitalism". Rarely is the term defined but it seems to be coming from a socialist perspective. I have found most of people's complaints are more accurately aimed at two things. The state, and fiat money.
Freedom is not a cure for humanity's flaws but I have a hard time beleiving the world would be better off with less of it.
So for all the people that tire of "bitcoin fixes this", spend some time studying economics from an Austrian. Then study bitcoin.
Removing capitalism isn't the answer. Destroying fiat just might be the answer to most of the ills falsely blamed on capitalism.
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64 sats \ 0 replies \ @Golu 25 Sep
I agree on your and Austrian perspective of Economics. Capitalism isn't going anywhere even when Bitcoin is completely established globally.
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64 sats \ 41 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Sep
The Fiat monetary system is very explicitly NOT free market Capitalism. Fiat monetary system empowers unelected bankers to arbitrarily set the price of capital and to disburse it toward those they choose to. Fiat money undermines the private accumulation of capital via savings, by debasing the currency. Fiat money as practised today is crony capitalism where the price, issuance and allocation of capital funding is controlled by state sponsored bankers.
The above may be what provokes some of the outcry against 'Capitalism' as what is being called Capitalism is a corrupted and manipulated distortion where the very core- capital itself, has been captured and controlled by private bankers.
Bitcoin immediately restores the incentives toward saving and thrift and fosters a free market in capital accumulation and allocation.
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10 sats \ 40 replies \ @kepford OP 25 Sep
True. It does trip people up though because if you say what we have isn't free market instead of saying it is LESS free they start spinning. The socialist use this kind of ignorance by pointing to places like Sweden and calling them socialist. Instead of the truly socialist countries like Venezuela or the old Soviets. Freedom leads to prosperity. Even in places with massive welfare states. If the state was to abolish private property of stock markets the results would be terrible.
Imagine how much property there could globally with bitcoin killing fiat banker's games! It is truly hopeful.
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42 sats \ 38 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
How would a nation state on The Bitcoin Standard defend itself against a military attack from a nation state (lets say of otherwise identical economic size, population and resources) that uses fiat monetary system? Surely if all other factors were equal the fiat nation state can leverage superior resources (via fiat debasement) and defeat The Bitcoin Standard nation state?
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245 sats \ 30 replies \ @DarthCoin 26 Sep
Bitcoin is to empower the sovereign individual and NOT the states. A sovereign individual with Bitcoin will not need anymore any bullshit state. Each individual will be his own "state".
Please watch these 3 parts of "The island", explaining all those aspects:
Bonus video: How to be a crook
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0 sats \ 29 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
You seriously believe that individuals will not need the security and protection of the nation state? Have you seen Israel Palestine Lately? Have you seen Ukraine Lately? China? Who are funding both conflicts in a proxy war against the USA.
Are you serious? Give me one example anywhere in human history of a jurisdiction where government was absent but where people could live secure and productive lives. Just one? You cannot.
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590 sats \ 28 replies \ @DarthCoin 26 Sep
You have much to learn... #586916 But you will never learn until you will be able to step out from the "state cage" mindset.
As I said many times, but people do not want to understand this powerful meme
When you will be capable to understand it, then we can talk. Until then... good luck in your state cage.
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22 sats \ 14 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
State cage mindset is a great phrase for it. It is a mental cage for sure.
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0 sats \ 13 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
You fail to respond let alone refute any pf the facts and issues I raise instead replying with your stock in trade of troll name calling. I am here for reasoned debate not name calling- if you cannot respond to the ideas and challenges I have thrown your way with a fact based reasoned and respectful reply then you lose the contest of ideas by default.
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22 sats \ 9 replies \ @Thereal 26 Sep
@DarthCoin are you Nakamoto 😀 curiously this thinking is rare or do you have the "Bitcoin standard" because this what exactly I learnt
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 26 Sep
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @DarthCoin 26 Sep
most probably I came from the future...
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
I am as free as I want to be- much freer than most people ~ who choose to be slaves.
The sad reality is most people do not want to be free because its hard work.
In terms of the state - the nation state is the geographical collective of people who act under collective rules and compete with other aggregations of people- they are the largest organised groups of people with a common territory and as such naturally compete against other groups. Thinking you can discard that structure which has been at play since DNA and life began is naive.
Yes the state is a cage but also a protective and nurturing structure. If you discard it you will be easy prey to the nearest despot. You live in a nation state that has been largely successful in gaining resource wealth and hegemony over other peoples and territories- you are taking that fact and reality for granted.
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306 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 26 Sep
the nation state is the geographical collective of people who act under collective rules and compete with other aggregations of people
No, you are wrong. And I will explain it to you with another 2 simple images:
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
There are whole books written on this topic. Chaos Theory by Bob Murphy is a good (free) one if you really are curious about what smarter people than I would say.
Truth is, no one really knows but the status quo isn't the "only way".
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
I am primarily interested in what you think and say. If your ideas come from these other people then summarise what you have learned from them and argue the issue at hand based on your understanding.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
Here's the deal. Everything you are saying... I have heard for pretty much 25 years from progressives/democrats and conservative republicans. We need this big stick to keep the business in line. Blah blah blah. They get rich off the system. They are corrupt. The populace isn't smart enough to even reason about it.
This is why bitcoin is the answer. It doesn't require some philosophical debate or anything. Just greed. Just self preservation. It won't destroy the state but it does take a huge tool out of their hands.
The answer is to build something better and people vote with their actions/feet. Casting a vote isn't going to change the world but the day to day choices we make will. I'm not putting any faith in the state or democracy. But that's my take. I understand why most people don't see it that way. Its a journey.
If you do want to see what a smart economist that is very fair says about anarchy / stateless society read Bob Murphy. At the least you might come away with better questions or different questions.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
I agree Bitcoin can hugely reduce the rentseeking that is currently destroying western democracies. The bankers have taken over our governments and Bitcoin directly undercuts their position. But even if Bitcoin succeeds in reducing the power of the banks there will still be the need for some regulation of other markets where otherwise private interest and greed will result inevitably in market fixing and price gouging.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
Ha! I don't have the time to write up how x would work for you. I don't think you actually care. You want to argue. Its fine, we see it differently.
I didn't understand how an anarchy could work before looking at folks that had reasoned it out. Answering criticisms and questions I had.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
Am here for contest of ideas in good faith. My record demonstrates this. Am not here for circle jerking Libertarian cult BS. If you do not feel the good will and mental strength and confidence to engage in a contest of ideas - that is your loss - by default.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
I will freely admit my mind is closed to statism in general. The reasons are many. My goal in this post was not to convince someone of your world view that you are wrong. That's pretty much impossible unless the person is searching.
My reason for pointing you to that book is because it is an easy read and actually responds to many objections you have and many you haven't mentioned. I am not interested in writing up a full refutation of socialism or statism to someone that has described their world view as you have. It sounds like you are pretty firm. That's fine.
It is my loss though because I have wasted to much time on this thread. Congrats I guess.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Thereal 26 Sep
Would individuals consent to the government using their money to finance wars that do not benefit their countrymen if they owned their own money, savings, and spending?
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53 sats \ 2 replies \ @jgbtc 25 Sep
It's always the scapegoat, yet capitalism is always the cure for socialism not the other way around.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 25 Sep
Have you had any luck with redirecting people's angst toward fiat/state in discussions? I don't think I've found the right strategy. I don't get into debates with people so I don't mean that. Humans don't like to lose so when it turns into a debate few will budge on anything.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @jgbtc 26 Sep
I haven't tried much, but I think framing it in terms of central planning, and how that has been a total disaster every time it's been tried, is a good approach. Don't even mention the words socialist or capitalist if possible.
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46 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 25 Sep
There are many socialist assumptions that have embedded themselves in the public conscience. It's hard to root them out, because they appeal to resentment and envy, which are very powerful psychological forces.
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30 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 25 Sep
That's a great point.
This thought was sparked by reading a book where the author talked about modern slavery and sweat shops making products for the US consumer. They suggested if we consumed less this would somehow help these people.
I fail to see how it would. I don't have sources handy but I believe it has been well documented that globally massive numbers of humans have been lifted out of poverty. There is still inequality of course. Always will be. But the reduction in global poverty seems like a great thing to me.
It could be so much better if people could save their earnings in bitcoin though.
The US does clearly manipulate and use poor countries for the profit of corporations but this isn't a flaw in free markets but rather the result of centralized power. And even though this is global prosperity increases with access to free markets.
More central planning will result in poverty and starvation.
I think the consumerist lifestyle is just largely fueled by cheap credit and the discouragement of saving caused by fiat money printing.
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44 sats \ 2 replies \ @didiplaywell 25 Sep
How ironic it is, that when the 1st world was blaming shortcomings to capitalism, thinking of socialism as a superior alternative, we in the 3rd world of socialism recognized it inferior and sought for capitalism JUST at the exact time the 1st world started rushing towards our ill-fated system. No amount of warning and evidence seems to work. We look at this greek-allegory-level phenomenon in awe and distress.
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30 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 25 Sep
Honestly I think some of the appeal of blaming Capitalism is that its some big bad thing that can be the whipping boy for all our own flaws as humans. Greed, lust, selfishness, fear, and sloth. Humans have always had these flaws.
It is hard for me to take these people seriously. The people I read/hear complain about capitalism and its ills. They very often are soft, privileged, and spoiled people. They drink expensive coffee in a hip coffee shop while complaining on their expensive iPhone. They haven't ever worked with their hands or wondered if they would be able to buy food. They rarely are from a blue-collar background.
I know I'm ranting and over-simplifying but it just gets old. We humans are prone to be reactionary. I'm doing it now actually. Its just so easy to do.
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56 sats \ 0 replies \ @didiplaywell 25 Sep
It's ok, we actually have the exact same phenomenon here, down to every detail you mentioned. The pejorative term here is "leftie with OSDE" (OSDE is THE most expensive high-elite health insurance service in the entire country), "leftie with iphone", "snowflake", "macchiato leftie", etc. It's the exact same pattern.
Yet, while we despise them, they are not a major driving force. The biggest problem is and has always been just sheer ignorance from the general population, in the exact same way the USA has been affected too: republicans have no other distinction from democrats other than conservatism. Milei was the first referent ever to explicitly and vehemently point out that fact, a bold move because it attacked both parts of the electorate, with the intention to create a third one (a move that to many seemed unbearably paradoxical). The fact he did pulled that off against all odds is nothing short of a Napoleonic-level political victory.
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40 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 25 Sep
That is true. People arent understanding the real reason why inflation and devaluation happens.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @stack_harder 26 Sep
whenever i see people arguing about prices and things on facebook or whatever, they always blame politicians and capitalism when 99% of the issues are caused as a result of fiat and the wheels coming of the system. when they could keep inflation ticking at 2% people didn't really notice as much, since the big covid print though, real inflation has been like 10% or more, seemingly everywhere
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @mayitorose97 26 Sep
Those who defend socialism tooth and nail are for me two classes: the rich who want to live as lazy people as the greatest representatives of socialism were, or the poor who do not know anything else and are deceived by small things. The greatest example is China, if a socialist power but based on a capitalist economy
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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @BTC_Bellzer 26 Sep
CRONY capitalism is a large problem but socialism is not the answer
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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
Adam Smith warned that businesses will always at the first opportunity start scheming how they can collude and fix prices and markets- so, a strong proactive regulatory approach is required to ensure crony capitalism does not take hold. Unfortunately across most of the 'liberal western democracies' the cronys (capital) have captured and controlled the politicians/regulatory institutions. If socialism means regulating and preventing market fixing then bring it on.
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0 sats \ 8 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
The current regimes are supposedly designed to regulate markets and capitalists. If it doesn't work under what we have now what makes one think killing the prices system and central planning will be better. We have mountains of evidence showing socialism leads to shortages and poverty. No thanks.
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
The current system does Nothing to limit bankers colluding and market rigging- it actually explicitly empowers them to do that! The current system also allows corporate lobbyists to own politicians via patronage- that is enabling crony capitalism, monopolies, oligopolies and huge inefficiencies. If preventing market rigging monopolist cartel and oligopoly behaviour is branded socialist then bring it on. Read Adam Smith again if you doubt the need for it.
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
That's not socialism. That's the problem.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
Fiat money is not a free market- it is rigged.
And allowing unlimited corporate sponsorship of politicians is not democracy it is cleptocracy.
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @kepford OP 26 Sep
I don't disagree. But socialism is even worse. The true deep issue is the state. Centralization of control. The greatest monopoly of all. The solution is freedom, bitcoin and the death of the state. Bitcoin could take away one of the biggest tools of the state/banks.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 26 Sep
I agree however there is still the question of whether nation states that still operate fiat monetary systems will have greater short term ability to focus capital upon warfare and thereby take over any Bitcoin Standard jurisdiction. The bankers are not going to surrender their power willingly. And if the state is so decimated as you seek who prevents anti competitive market rigging cartels, monopolies, oligopolies etc?
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